Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)

There is a chat about the rates of artillery fire for our <font color="orange">HPS</font id="orange"> & <font color="orange">BG</font id="orange"> games. In one turn it was noted that one artillery battery fired 7 times in automatic defensive fire and once in offensive fire phases for a total of 8 times. It is wondered if this is right.


In <font color="orange">Weapons and Equipment of the Napoleonic Wars</font id="orange"> by Philip J. Haythornwaite on page 70 it says :

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"Rate of fire depended upon the time needed to re-lay the gun after every recoil; <font color="orange"> in practice a rate of two roundshot or three canister per minute was about average,</font id="orange"> though this could decrease rapidly when the crew became tired (one shot every three or four minutes was not unreasonbable in a protracted action), or if the enemy were too close to necessitate re-positioning the gun an almost continuous fire could be maintained for <font color="orange">short periods</font id="orange">; a competition in 1777 achieved 12 to 14 <font color="red">unaimed </font id="red">shots per minute, a useless waste of shot under combat conditions. The heavier the piece, of course, the slower the rate of fire; a 12-pdr might average one shot per minute. Recoil was considerable, Adye's table ranging from 12 feet for a medium 12 pdr and a light 6-pdr firing roundshot, to 3 1/2 feet for a heavy 3-pdr firing canister. (These tests were carried out on elm planks; in soft ground the recoil would be much less.)"
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Just how does this relate to the John Tiller games that we play?

Does one offensive firing and one defensive firing that we see an artillery batter fire its guns equate to: <font color="orange"> "in practice the rate of two roundshot or three canister per minute was about average,"</font id="orange">?

I wonder. What is happening when we see a gun "fire" 8 times during a single turn while others may only fire twice? Is it possible that we are seeing a single battery fire as much as 16 to 24 rounds per minute.

If the above is <font color="orange">not</font id="orange"> true, then are seeing our artillery batteries fire way[0range] under[/orange] the normal rate of fire for an artillery battery during the Napoleonic Era?

<u>POSSIBLE SOLUTION:</u> A set number of times a battery can fire during our 15 minute turns must be known and is being used by the current game engine. That set number should not be exceeded under <u>any</u> circumstances.

I say give the player the choice of firing all or part of that battery's allotment of artillery fire in the offensive fire phase if he wants. This could then possibly negate any chance of firing the battery defensively ---if he fired the entire allotment offensively.

How is artillery fire worked out currently? Is it abstracted or is it literal? How many times is a battery really firing when we see it fire once offensively and once offensively?

What do you think?

Regards,
Rick

Colonel Rick Motko
1er Bataillon, 33° Régiment d'Infanterie de Ligne
2eme Brigade, 11eme division
IIIe corps, Armée du Nord


Vive l'Empereur!

But a battery HPS engine is of 200 men more or less open fire during 15 minutes, so that I believe that is possible
200 men divided by 8 guns: 25 men per battery
8 guns firing x 15 minutes round of 3 salvo per minute: 360 salvo per minutes [:0]

http://www.venezuela-emb.org.au/images/flag.jpg

In the case that I am referring to, it is a 3 gun battery of 24 pdrs.

Gabriel,
You are saying then that the firing of the battery in the game is literal as opposed to an abstraction?
Rick


Colonel Rick Motko
1er Bataillon, 33° Régiment d'Infanterie de Ligne
2eme Brigade, 11eme division
IIIe corps, Armée du Nord


Vive l'Empereur!

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Le Tondu</i>
Gabriel,
You are saying then that the firing of the battery in the game is literal as opposed to an abstraction?
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Yes I thought exactly that, at least is close of authors recognized, the round of salvo per 15 minutes of turn (literal)

http://www.venezuela-emb.org.au/images/flag.jpg

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Gabriel Rodríguez</i>
<br />

Yes I thought exactly that, at least is close of authors recognized, the round of salvo per 15 minutes of turn (literal)

http://www.venezuela-emb.org.au/images/flag.jpg
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If that is true that one volley in the game is literal, then isn't the game <font color="orange">under</font id="orange"> modelling artillery fire? This seems especially true when you consider Haythornwaite's quote <font color="orange">"in practice a rate of two roundshot or three canister per minute was about average..."</font id="orange"> It would seem that we wshould then have more volleys per turn.

I'd just like to know.

Colonel Rick Motko
1er Bataillon, 33° Régiment d'Infanterie de Ligne
2eme Brigade, 11eme division
IIIe corps, Armée du Nord


Vive l'Empereur!

I am of the opinion that the ROF is too slow in the games. HOWEVER, when HPS was orginally released there was a vocal group who insisted that 'machine gun' batteries were ruining the game when used with ADF. If I remember correctly, the ROF was turned down noticeably.

However, I would never assume anything in these games is literal. View defensive fire as guns firing at targets of opportunity. View offensive fire as concerted, directed fire by the battery. (Defensive fire may represent <i>some</i> of the guns firing a <i>few</i> times. Offensive fire may represnt <i>most</i> of the guns firing <i>several</i> times.

Seriously. If you try and parse the game into finite bits trying to make literal sense of it you are going to damage your brain.

<b>Général de Division Michael Cox</b>
<font size="4"><i>Principe <font size="1">della </font id="size1">Toscana</i></font id="size4">
Comte de Moselle

<i><font size="4">Armée du Rhin</font id="size4">
<font size="2">2e battallion, 1er Regiment de Chasseurs a Pied, Inf. de l'V. Gde.</i></font id="size2">
<center></center>

Clearly both artillery and infantry firing - both offensive and defensive fire combined - doesn't actually represent the maximum number of shots possible within a 15 minute turn. So it's clearly abstract and each time a battery or unit fires this represents multiple shots.

Nevertheless, what I'd like to see is a more flexible system that takes into consideration <i>movement</i> - for instance a system like the WW2 & modern series' <i><b>action point </b></i>system, where if a unit uses up its full movement allowance it can't fire, but if it doen't move at all it can fire up to three times offensively. Surely linking movement and firing within a 15 minute "turn" makes sense for the Napoleonic era just as for the later period? Naturally, if a unit's moving about it can't be spending the same time reloading and firing. Moreover, there's no logical reason why a unit can't fire and then fall back rather than advance and then fire, yet the existing game engine doesn't permit this (although the more flexible action point system does)


Capt Rich White
4th Cavalry Brigade
Cavalry Corps
Anglo-Allied Army

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Mike Cox</i>
<br />I am of the opinion that the ROF is too slow in the games. HOWEVER, when HPS was orginally released there was a vocal group who insisted that 'machine gun' batteries were ruining the game when used with ADF. If I remember correctly, the ROF was turned down noticeably.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Mike,

You're correct. In either Eck v. 1.2 or 1.3 the ADF rate of fire for arty was significantly reduced. The routine that was added was designed to provide an <b>average</b> rate of fire of 3/ADF phase, but a random element was injected to keep players from "gaming" the system by triggering a btty's fire with, say, skirmishers and then rolling up to the btty with formed units. This random element means that some bttys may fire more than 3 while others may not fire at all. Additionally, the size of the unit moving is factored into the equation so that a btty is less likely to fire at, say, a skirmisher than an 800 man bn.

It should also be noted that ALL ADF fire is at a reduced effectiveness so that the normative 3 ADF fires would equal the fire of a non-moving unit during the Offensive Phase.

Finally, an optional rule was added in the latest releases that prevents ADF fire when only skirmishers or leaders are being moved.

Regards,

Paco

<i>Maréchal</i> M. Francisco Palomo
<i>Prince d'Essling, Grande Duc d'Abrantes et
Comte de Marseille
Commandant - Division de Cavalerie de la Vieille Garde </i>

As with everything else in these games, the rate of fire is an abstract.

If you want to consider it in a literal sense, try the following.

1 Turn = 15 minutes
2 Phases (offensive and defensive) = 7.5 minutes each

One battery shot in offensive phase = maximum rate of sustained fire.
Three battery shots in defensive phase = one battery shot in offensive fire phase = maximum rate of sustained fire.

Maximum rate of sustained fire depends to an extent on battery type; 3lb batteries could keep up a higher rate than 12lb batteries, but, that is factored into the hit probabilities. For arguments sake, call the maximum rate of sustained fire 2 rounds / minute / battery (irrespective of battery type).

A battery firing 8 shots in the defensive fire phase, is firing 5 shots more than the maximum sustained rate of fire, over a period of 7.5 minutes. It's rate of fire would be almost 6 rounds / minute over this period, improbable, but not impossible. Bear in mind that this would only likely happen when the battery was under threat (a lot of movement in it's field of fire) and the shots would be unaimed and well within the bounds of Haythornthwaite's 16 to 24 rounds / minute.

However, I believe that the more important question relating to artillery, is not rate of fire, but casualties caused by artillery, which should work out to about 0.1 man / shot / canon, (so on average, an 8 gun battery firing at 2 rounds / minute for 15 minutes, should cause 24 casualties, range (and therefore ammunition type) obviously effecting this value. Then factor in ammunition supply so guns must be used more conservatively than they currently are, and you come closer to reproducing their battlefield role.

As an aside, I think I read on another thread that unit quality should be increased. I disagree. This just increases the carnage, which is grim enough in these abstract games already. Reduce the quality / morale. More men marched (or fled) from the field of battle than were left on it - when was the last game this happened for you?

Mark

One more point on Haythornthwaite's observation and relating reduced rate of fire to artillery crew fatigue. This may have been a factor in a reduced rate of fire but, more significant is ammunition conservation and availability of targets.

I don't have the numbers to hand but, assume that a battery has a supply of 300 rounds with it. An 8 gun battery firing at a sustained rate of 2 rounds per minute would exhaust this supply in 1 and a quarter hours (5 game turns). Firing at 1 round a minute (offensive fire phase only) would double the duration of available ammunition.

All the guns, do not fire all the time in a battle - partly because of limited supply and also, the enemy do not stand there presenting them a target hour after hour - they move out of line of sight if taking a pounding. In other words, if there's nothing to fire at you don't fire and you conserve your ammunition in case of need. I believe that these two factors are far more significant influences on the maximum rate of sustained fire than crew fatigue.

Mark

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Mark Eason</i>
<br />One more point on Haythornthwaite's observation and relating reduced rate of fire to artillery crew fatigue. This may have been a factor in a reduced rate of fire but, more significant is ammunition conservation and availability of targets.

I don't have the numbers to hand but, assume that a battery has a supply of 300 rounds with it. An 8 gun battery firing at a sustained rate of 2 rounds per minute would exhaust this supply in 1 and a quarter hours (5 game turns). Firing at 1 round a minute (offensive fire phase only) would double the duration of available ammunition.

All the guns, do not fire all the time in a battle - partly because of limited supply and also, the enemy do not stand there presenting them a target hour after hour - they move out of line of sight if taking a pounding. In other words, if there's nothing to fire at you don't fire and you conserve your ammunition in case of need. I believe that these two factors are far more significant influences on the maximum rate of sustained fire than crew fatigue.

Mark
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Mark,

Two additional factors that affect the rate of fire are: 1) the huge amount of smoke that would be generated; and 2) the overheating of the gun tubes that a high rate of fire produces.

IMO, arty fires much too frequently in these games as it is, while many players blaze away at skirmish cos. when they have nothing else to fire at. To quote one authority, "Nor did the rate of fire approach its theoretical maximum of two, three or more rounds per minute: had it, the guns would soon have become overheated and unusable, the gunners and the ammunition would both have been exhausted, and the smoke surrounding the battery would have been impenetrable. Between twenty and thirty rounds per hour was probably the norm for sustained fire, with the tempo increasing before an attack was launched." Muir, Rory, <u>Tactics and the experience of Battle in the Age of Napoleon</u>, p. 34 (Yale University Press 1998).

Regards,

Paco

<i>Maréchal</i> M. Francisco Palomo
<i>Prince d'Essling, Grande Duc d'Abrantes et
Comte de Marseille
Commandant - Division de Cavalerie de la Vieille Garde </i>

Paco

I agree. I was drawing on Muir's book as well. I am a firm believer in limiting artillery ammunition to about 12 rounds / battery / day of battle.

That is enough to fire each battery every phase for 90 minutes (per day) or offensive phase only for 3 hours / day, for players who realise the need to conserve ammunition and not blaze away at maximum range, with near unlimited supplies all day.

Gun smoke would obscure view, which would be an issue firing at a target to soften it up before attack, but such fire is best used as offensive phase fire only to have maximum effect, (simulating reduced rate of fire), when the battery position is threatened, the rate increases, offensive and defensive fire phases, with the battery firing unaimed throught the smoke. Perhaps there is a case for reducing the effectiveness of defensive phase fire?

Food for thought

Regards

Mark

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Mark Eason</i>
<br />Paco

I agree. I was drawing on Muir's book as well. I am a firm believer in limiting artillery ammunition to about 12 rounds / battery / day of battle.

That is enough to fire each battery every phase for 90 minutes (per day) or offensive phase only for 3 hours / day, for players who realise the need to conserve ammunition and not blaze away at maximum range, with near unlimited supplies all day.

Gun smoke would obscure view, which would be an issue firing at a target to soften it up before attack, but such fire is best used as offensive phase fire only to have maximum effect, (simulating reduced rate of fire), when the battery position is threatened, the rate increases, offensive and defensive fire phases, with the battery firing unaimed throught the smoke. Perhaps there is a case for reducing the effectiveness of defensive phase fire?

Food for thought

Regards

Mark
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This issue of defensive fire effectiveness has been/is now being discussed in the ACWGC forums...

The prevailing feeling is that the effectiveness was to weak in the defensive phase.

IMHO, if we reduce the effectiveness anymore in these games it would be a serious mistake.

Think about it for a minute... in these games ( I am talking single phased version here ) you are not actually in controll of the defensive phase and thus a weak defensive shooting by your gauys means that you re very vulnerable to a mass attack. A stronger defensive phase means that at laest you can have a better chance of surviving. Remember also that with the lack of auto cavalry counter charges and auto square formataion, the defensive phase is pretty scary.

Monsieur le Marechal Baron John Corbin
Duc de Paive
Commanding the Division de Cavalerie de la Jeune Garde
NWC President

Hi John

I'm not really familiar with the single phase system (I don't like surrendering my control to that of a computer - especially having seen how it handles the AI [B)]). But defensive fire, even if weakened, would be fine if it was more likely to cause disruption / disorder even with fewer casualties, by reducing morale / quality if necessary.

The other feature I would love to see is a morale check every time a unit moves into a hex in an enemy threat zone (not just for formation change, but for onward movement). Failure in this check could either cause disorder, end of movement for that unit, or prohibition of melee etc. It would represent the reluctance of units to march directly through the fire zone fo a battery (heedless of casualties) as they so often do in our simulations like a bunch of automatons.

Food for thought

Mark