Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)

Edit: This is now a petition that I will submit to the powers that be if a sufficiently large number of members supports it. If you are willing to do so, please indicate it here in this thread.

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Gentlemen who have agreed to support the petition:

Rich White
Alexey Tartyshev
John Corbin
Atle Jenssen
Mike Cox
Sellick Davies
Gary McClellan
Sean Turner
Rick Motko
Phillip Chimara
Anton Kosyanenko
Andy Moss
Theron Lambert (?)
Phil Roubaud
Phil Driscoll
Stefan Reuter
Ed Blackburn
Greg Morgan
Tomasz Nowacki
Yann Lamezec
Jim Pfluecke
M. Francisco Palomo
Eugene Renna
Valère Bernard
Christian Rizo
David Guégan
Bill Peters


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Most of the scenarios in the HPS games and all in the BG games are purely tactical. Most last one day and happen on fairly small maps. All movement, therefore, is also purely tactical, and events beyond the battlefield are of no concern.

The four and six day campaigns on the big Bavaria and Belgium maps in HPS Eckmuhl and Waterloo however obviously venture into the operational field. And there time and space become of importance. In the games, it's a quite common occurrence that units march several days and nights on end, yet arrive on the battlefield just as big and fresh as they started off. In reality however there were physical limits. Soldiers need to be fed and rested; horses even more so. In forced marches units lose stragglers, and not in insignificant numbers; the longer the march, the greener the unit, the worse the weather (hot, cold, wet), the more severe the loss. These circumstances produced limits to operational freedom that are totally absent from the games. This didn't matter on small maps and one-day fights. It matters for the 388 and 534 turn monsters.

The things I would like to see in the game to give us some incentive to avoid marching our soldiers to death:

<b>1. Units lose stragglers as they move.</b>
- I believe this shouldn't be difficult to introduce. It's already there in the Panzer Campaigns engine as "vehicle breakdown"--mechanized units lose vehicles as they move.
- It should be a small percentage that doesn't matter at all when moving tactically; off the cuff, what about .25 % of the current strength per turn moved.
- Possible refinements: green units lose more, veterans less; horse soldiers lose more; units with high fatigue lose more; in bad weather, they lose more; units that preserve some of their movement allowance lose less.
- This would confront us with a very realistic decision in operational moves: do we want to get there firstest, *or* with the mostest; because, in spite of Forrest's dictum, in reality it rarely ever was both.

<b>2. Units gain fatigue as they move.</b>
- Again, this shouldn't be difficult to do; it's already there in the Panzer Campaigns and now also ACW series, in the shape of night fatigue.
- Also again, it should be a small percentage gained with every move, maybe 5 points?
- This would again face us with a realistic decision: get there fast, but with fatigued troops, or a bit slower, but with rested troops. It would also encourage us more to rest troops once they become fatigued.

<b>3. Units regain strength as they rest.</b>
- Yet again, this should be easy to do; the Panzer Campaigns games already have that feature.
- This would represent stragglers rejoining, walking wounded recovering enough to carry arms, etc.
- A significant percentage of the losses in battle were not fatalities, but just temporary incapacities and stragglers. A unit coming out of a battle could be reduced to 10% of its strength, yet roll call next day would show 50% present and fit for duty. (These are the actual numbers for one of the battalions that defended La Haye Sainte btw.) Battle was a demoralizing experience, but the effects often didn't outlast a good night's sleep or two.
- This would be a major incentive for resting worn-out units off the field for a full day and night, then rejoining the fight in better shape on day 4 or 5. It would also encourage us to preserve a solid core of each unit which has taken heavy losses so it can rebuilt. As it is, who doesn't regard a battalion of 100 men with max fatigue as expendable? But wouldn't we send them to rest on 17th April if we can get them back as 300 fresh men on the 20th?

Admittedly, all this would not significantly affect most smaller and shorter battles. But I believe we will see more of the operational scope in future titles and anyway these full-map campaigns are popular and an enjoyable experience. But as they are, allowing us to march our units to death without any consequences, they lack a certain important element of realism.



<center>
D.S. "Green Horse" Walter, Maréchal d'Empire
Duc des Pyramides, Comte de Normandie
Commandant la [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/3_VI_AdR_Home.htm"]3e Division Bavaroise[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/EdM_start.htm"]L'Ecole de Mars[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant la Brigade de Grenadiers de la Moyenne Garde
</center>

This is all great stuff. I would love to see such a thing!

But once again, who is listening to all these “I would love to see….â€

Some good features and - like my OOB Petition post - material already in the Panzer series!

I agree that a straggler loss feature could do with some refinement - perhaps units can move up to 50% of their allowance without suffering much in the way of stragglers, but if they move over 75% then staggler loss should be a significant problem.

How about adding in 10 levels of disruption to replace the current unsophisticated system where a unit is either in good order or disrupted and the impact of disruption is quite severe? That too would be a significant improvement to the game engine.

One good feature of Shrapnel's Dragoon series is the fact that units can expend movement points in order to attempt to reduce disruption and restore unit cohesion. If this were incorporated into the HPS engine it would help to slow down the pace of the battle and allow players the choice of "resting" units (even if for only part of a turn), in order to reduce disruption and improve combat efficiency. With the current state of the engine, players can rush units about the map at top speed, turn after turn, with no penalty whatsoever.

NB: Fatigue is not the same as disruption, because it doesn't reduce mobility and the effects of the two are not identical. Also, recovery from fatigue should be fairly gradual and would require resting, whereas "disruption" doesn't represent a unit's level of exhaustion but level of cohesion, so expending movement allowance to recover from disruption is logical. With 10 levels of disruption and the possibility of spending time (ie. movement allowance) "dressing the ranks" to restore cohesion, the <i>Line Movement Disruption</i> optional rule makes a lot more sense.


Capt Rich White
4th Cavalry Brigade
Cavalry Corps
Anglo-Allied Army

Actually I tried above all to keep this simple and to suggest three solutions that, in my limited judgement, could be introduced easily and without major engine changes because they are already there in the other series. That many more features could be desirable is evident, but this is something we might actually get. [:)]

<i>Green Horse</i>

You're probably right - what you're asking for is pretty straightfoward and probably quite easy to code in. Anyway, I'd recommend turning your post into a petition and try to get as many names as possible if you'd like to see it incorporated into the game engine at some point. It may take time - possibly years - but a petition with a lot of names attached is probably the best approach.

You can add my name to the petition, even if you don't want to add yours to the revised OOB petition I've just set up after Bill Peters made it clear this was something he's been eager to see for some years.


Capt Rich White
4th Cavalry Brigade
Cavalry Corps
Anglo-Allied Army

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Richard</i>
<br />You're probably right - what you're asking for is pretty straightfoward and probably quite easy to code in. Anyway, I'd recommend turning your post into a petition and try to get as many names as possible if you'd like to see it incorporated into the game engine at some point. It may take time - possibly years - but a petition with a lot of names attached is probably the best approach.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Hm, we didn't exactly get anywhere with a petition for a rather simple, straightforward and desperately needed issue that was signed by over 30 mostly veteran members of the CCC, if you still recall it .... [B)]

<i>Green Horse</i>

OK I would turn it into a petition if either Rich Hamilton or Bill Peters think it might fly. They did the big maps and scenarios, so if they see merit with the idea, it could be worthwhile trying.

<i>Green Horse</i>

Dierk - we have one new guy that obviously doesnt know me very well. Yes, I am listening and these have been suggested in the past.

They are ALL great ideas. If you can get John to bite on them then go for it. Who cares about who got it done? Its the idea that it enhances the game engine and gives us more bang for the buck.

Yes, I am for this. No, I wont forward it to John as I have done this before. Organize a group, make up a suggestion and pass it along to Rich Hamilton.

I never know what John will agree to guys. I dont have any authority. Just like you I suggest it to John and leave it at that.

Yes Dierk, right on dude. We need this big time in the long games. Be ready for another big map.

No, I wont campaign for it. I have already done my part. Organize yourselves and approach John on this kind of stuff. Its great for the hobby.

Some of you will remember the old Rich Berg ACW series he did for SPI.

You can thank a friend of mine named Ed for an update to the BCE system that was added on later - a revamp of the system that originally shipped with Terrible Swift Sword. He got Mr. Berg to add it in and there was one other thing that he suggested that was a big hit with us.

The moral here is that if you want it - put your ideas down on paper - think through EVERY possible problem that could arise. List it too. Discuss how the rule would counter the problem OR how it could be coded to be countered.

I am no programmer guys. I only use what tools I am given. Rich is much more code saavy being that his IT skills are probably 10x mine. But he doesnt program either.

I hope that this gets added. Right down what you want. Think it out. Are there holes in it?

Then go for it! No. I wont email John ahead for you. Its been done already. But things suggested years ago and not added are now IN the game. Its all up to John's timetable and how he feels it will flavor the system.

So just like my reply to the VP points idea - think it through. I like the idea - have for years. That and smoke and weather. We dont have the former but we have the latter (yes, I know that smoke can be simulated using the weather lines but its not the same as what I envisioned).

And yes Rick Motko, this all will probably be in the new game. Great. Am all for it. Just wanted to get in the Doubleshot Design blurb now before you reminded us for the 210th time.

Bill Peters
Former NWC President, Club Founder, Prussian and Austrian Army Founder, Stefan Reuter's hunting buddy. HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]

Right then. This is a

<font size="6">P</font id="size6"><font size="5">ETITION</font id="size5">

now. If you can support the idea, please add your name to it. If we can get enough support, I'll send it to the powers that be.

<center>
D.S. "Green Horse" Walter, Maréchal d'Empire
Duc des Pyramides, Comte de Normandie
Commandant la [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/3_VI_AdR_Home.htm"]3e Division Bavaroise[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/EdM_start.htm"]L'Ecole de Mars[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant la Brigade de Grenadiers de la Moyenne Garde
</center>

I support this

Monsieur le Marechal Baron John Corbin
Duc de Paive
Commanding the Division de Cavalerie de la Jeune Garde
NWC President

I support this as well! Oh, yeah![8D]

Colonel Atle Jenssen
Prince Regent's Hussars
Hanoverian Brigade
Cavalry Corps
Anglo Allied Army

Put me down with this one.

Gen Cox
ADR

Supported

Kolonel Sellick Davies,
III Bataillon Nassau-Usingen,
2nd Bde,

I do think that there are bigger fish (artillery/target density), but this would be a positive change, so mark me down.

FZM Freiherr Gary McClellan
Generalissimus Imperial Austrian Army
Portner Grenadier Battallion
Allied Coalition C-in-C

I'm for it.


Lt Sean Turner
1er Dragons
2ème Division de Dragons
Ier Corps de Réserve de Cavalerie
l'Armee du Nord