American Civil War Game Club (ACWGC)

Some of history's greatest generals lost when the odds against them became too high.

And I think he was acutely aware of logistics, particularly after he had to disperse his army during the winter of 1862-1863 due largely to supply chain problems over which he had no control.

I think that was the real motivation for his invasion of Pennsylvania, and possibly why he felt he had to roll the dice at Gettysburg.

As for the election of 1864, my reading indicated Lincoln won because of the Union victories at Atlanta and in the Valley, not because Lee held out in Richmond. If anything, it was the horrendous casualties his army inflicted on the Yanks during the Overland Campaign that put the election in doubt in the first place.

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MG Mike Mihalik
Forrest's Cavalry Corps
AoWest/CSA

In the context of rating generals, you can't give a loser a perfect rating. Wellington defeats Napoleon therefore Wellington should be rated higher. Grant defeats Lee therefore Grant should be rated higher. Winners get the higher marks at the end of any conflict. Lee should be a close second behind Grant. When you split hairs ranking generals someone has to be on top to set the ideal others should be measured against. That has to be Grant.

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Gen. Mitch Johnson
GENERAL IN CHIEF
ARMY OF THE TENNESSEE COMMANDER

It is clear to me our standards for rating the quality of generals are very different. I'll leave it at that,

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MG Mike Mihalik
Forrest's Cavalry Corps
AoWest/CSA

Based upon that then I guess Grant can't be given a perfect rating either. After all, what was the result of Cold Harbor where the Union outnumbered the Confederates two to one?

Context is everything [which is why I asked earlier what the factors were in determining the ratings - it seems to be a subjective rather than an objective approach]. Napoleon lost several battles yet many historians rate him as the best of his time, some as the best of all time. Lee was able to win battles where the odds were against him. Although I believe Lee saw Grant as one of the best Union generals I doubt that Lee ever saw him as the best in the war as his last order said "After four years of arduous service marked by unsurpassed courage and fortitude, the Army of Northern Virginia has been compelled to yield to overwhelming numbers and resources" rather than beaten by superior generalship.

I'm sure I've seen this rating of generals before but I can't remember where or who wrote it. I seem to recall that Grant did get the perfect rating but then it's just one man's opinion, and a subjective one at that.

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Paul Swanson
Lieutenant-General
First Division
First Corps
Army of Northern Virginia

I disagree that the winning General is by default the better one. So many factors contribute to a win or a loss. Not all are controllable.

One simple example from WW2: Who would you take; Rommel or Montgomery? Montgomery won but I take Rommel 100 out of 100 asks.

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Lt. Colonel JJ Jansen
3rd Calvary Brigade, 4th Calvary Division
Army of Tennessee
CSA

John Pope

Bright, politically well connected, educated in the military art, brave, enterprising, and inventive, John Pope was also arrogant, abrasive, and, as a young officer, hyper-ambitious, with a remarkable facility for offending subordinates, colleagues, and superiors alike. His success against fixed fortifications on the Mississippi River was of great strategic significance, but his subsequent failure to weld the Army of Virginia into an effective fighting force and to work collaboratively with other generals contributed to his ignominious defeat at the Second Battle of Bull Run (a Union disaster that dwarfed the comeuppance of the First Battle of Bull Run) and cost him his command in the Eastern Theater.

HISTORIANS RATING: TWO STARS

That's a star too high. If one star is a losing commander and two stars is a competent commander, you can't rate Pope two stars. Of the entire retinue of passing Union generals in Virginia he is arguably the weakest of them all.

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Gen. Blake Strickler
Confederate General-in-Chief
El Presidente 2010 - 2012

Brilliant Suh <salute> Pure Gold !

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Karl McEntegart
Major General
Officer Commanding
Army of Tennessee





Make my enemy brave and strong, so that if defeated, I will not be ashamed.

General Suh, <salute>

Whatever about John Pope Suh, you spend, it would appear Suh, a lot of time in your Executive Private Office (bathroom). I trust your orderly keeps it up to scratch, Suh !

Your Obedient Servant, Suh,

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Karl McEntegart
Major General
Officer Commanding
Army of Tennessee





Make my enemy brave and strong, so that if defeated, I will not be ashamed.

Thomas J. Jackson

Eccentric, driven by what some would deem a profound religious faith and others might call fanatic zeal, Thomas J. "Stonewall" Jackson was a tactical genius. As a subordinate commander (except during the Valley Campaign), he was never responsible for big-picture strategy, but he was the greatest field commander on either side, and his combat practices had a great impact on tactics, while his tactics had a highly significant effect on strategy.

Jackson drilled his soldiers relentlessly, preparing them for the extraordinary demands he made on their endurance. His approach to combat, which was to leverage small numbers against much superior forces, required ceaseless maneuvering, often through long forced marches at great speed. Early on, he arrived at a formula for victory - deceive and surprise the enemy, defeat larger forces in detail, follow up victory with ruthless, annihilating pursuit - and, to a remarkable degree, he consistently followed through on it. His performance at the First Battle of Bull Run, the Valley Campaign, the Second Battle of Bull Run, Antietam, Fredericksburg, and Chancellorsville showed him to be a war-winning general, while his disappointing performance in the Seven Days Battles was an aberration that was almost certainly the product of personal fatigue as well as the exhaustion of his command. His death, as a result of a friendly-fire incident, at Chancellorsville very nearly amounted to a decapitating blow from which the Confederate military could never and would never recover.

HISTORIANS RATING: FOUR STARS


Huzzah! Old Jack got the four-star rating!

Does Jackson rate higher than Lee though? Wow... there's an argument for a barroom if I ever heard one.

My own belief is that he doesn't. Jackson might be Lee's equal but not his superior in tactics and strategy. Jackson was successful before Lee in the Valley while Lee was successful in spite of Jackson on the Peninsula. But then together they dominated for nearly a year until Jackson's death.

Can you make an argument that Jackson is superior to Lee? Jackson was nearly cut-off and defeated by Pope. Had Pope been competent, or had competent commanders, he should have been able to keep Longstreet and Jackson separated and defeated Jackson's Corps in detail. During the Antietam Campaign we often forget that Jackson's side mission at Harper's Ferry nearly caused Lee's army to be defeated in detail in Maryland. Had McClellan been more aggressive or the town of Harper's Ferry held out another day that is. At Fredericksburg, Jackson's lines were unprepared despite Jackson having plenty of time to arrange them for a defensive battle.

Jackson was not a perfect commander. But he had that "It" factor (Napoleon might call it luck) which sometimes seems to favor the bold.

Look forward to any other thoughts.

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Gen. Blake Strickler
Confederate General-in-Chief
El Presidente 2010 - 2012

Early death saved him from a lower rating. Sooner or later the facts of war would also have cost him some bricks out of his Stonewall.

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Lieutenant General Christian Hecht
Commander I Corps, Army of the Potomac

"Where to stop? I don't know. At Hell, I expect."

He was the common soldiers General. His calling was leading men into battle. Wearing the same dirty clothing and suffering the elements the same that they did. He complained of stomach problems and ailments as a professor, but it was the war that cured him, his purpose. He had the faith that no matter what happened, it was already ordained. Good or bad as that may be, it made him almost invincible on the battlefield. He won his mens respect first, and as a leader that is paramount before winning actual battles.

His efforts and leadership are to be admired, and he is certainly someone I have always enjoyed reading about.

I recommend the book “Rebel Yell” for anyone interested in learning more about him. Its a biography.

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Lt. Colonel JJ Jansen
3rd Calvary Brigade, 4th Calvary Division
Army of Tennessee
CSA

Does anyone know how Rebel Yell compares to James Robertson's Stonewall Jackson biography?

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Gen. Blake Strickler
Confederate General-in-Chief
El Presidente 2010 - 2012

Based on a guy that got shot by his own guys, had his arm amputated, then got a fever and died; I imagine that is not really the type of 'luck' most people would want.

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~Retired~

There is a supposed quote from Napoleon that he said "Is he lucky?" or "Is he a lucky general?". I've seen it 'quoted' in many publications (often from very reputable historians [yet a source is never given]. I've never seen a source for it and suspect Napoleon never said such a thing.
The closest I ever came was thanks to another wargamer who found a quote from Napoleon's correspondence (https://books.google.com.au/books?id=sAs_AAAAcAAJ&pg=PA686&redir_esc=y&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false) where Napoleon said regarding Sauret:
"Sauret: bon, très-bon soldat; pas assez éclairé pour être général; peu heureux." [Translation - Sauret: good, very good soldier; not enough education for a general; not lucky.]

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Paul Swanson
Lieutenant-General
First Division
First Corps
Army of Northern Virginia

“I know he's a good general, but is he lucky?” - Napoleon

I've read it often in histories of Napoleon (and referenced other places) but can't recall which general he was referring to. Might be a good question for our NWC friends

Ernie? Scott L?

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Gen. Blake Strickler
Confederate General-in-Chief
El Presidente 2010 - 2012