American Civil War Game Club (ACWGC)

Guys (or should I say Ya’ll),

Have recently joined the club and have enjoyed it tremendously. The biggest thing I have discovered is that playing against the computer AI can’t hold a candle to a real opponent. Having said that, one of the changes my human opponents have insisted on is playing with the Weak Zone of Control rule on (and I agree, this is much more realistic). However, I have not been able to quite figure it out. When there are only two opposing units around, it is quite clear that one unit can either move one hex thru the opponents ZOC (or retreat one hex after melee thru the others ZOC). But when multiple units are in the same general area, it gets more confusing. I at first thought that if two units (in different hexes) both had an adjoining hex in their ZOC, then the other sides unit could not move or retreat through that hex. Sometimes that seems the case, other times it does not. The online instruction manual doesn’t really help. Am I missing something here? Any help would be appreciated.

While I have monitored the board for several months this is my first post. I hope it is not too confusing!

Maj Gary Krenek
2/3/III
ANV
CSA

I'll give this a try.

First, I think there is a difference between weak zoc for movement and retreats.

For movement, a unit can always move to a vacant hex (assuming there is not some impassible hex side boundary)

For retreats, the unit can move to a legitimate retreat hex (the rear three hexes) under the weak zoc rule if one is vacant. I don't think units will retreat to any of the forward three hexes if they are under zoc control, so there is not an opportunity to retreat to these hexes under the weak zoc rule. This one I'm less sure of.



Lt Gen Bob Breen
Commanding XIX Corps, AoS
"Defenders of the Right"

Not to rub it in...[:D]

For you Union officers, there is a great article on ZOC and it's nuances at the War College.[8D]

General Breen is correct, a unit cannot retreat forward if the three forward hexes are within an opposing units ZOC.


General Jeff Laub
Union Chief of the Army
ACWGC Cabinet Member
http://www.geocities.com/laubster22/UnionHQ/

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by laubster22</i>
<br />Not to rub it in...[:D]

For you Union officers, there is a great article on ZOC and it's nuances at the War College.[8D]

General Breen is correct, a unit cannot retreat forward if the three forward hexes are within an opposing units ZOC.


General Jeff Laub
Union Chief of the Army
ACWGC Cabinet Member
http://www.geocities.com/laubster22/UnionHQ/
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General Laub,

No problem. After all, it's you Yanks who most NEED to learn about retreats -- since y'all so favor that particular maneuver [:D] !

Actually, though, maybe someone can clarify this for me (Maybe it's clarified at the Union War College, but the big sergeant at the door won't let me in [:(]!): When you refer to the 'three forward hexes', are you referring to the three to the front of the unit (depending on which way it is facing) or the three hexes opposite the direction the attack is coming from?

I think it is the former, but I'm not sure. I've placed units in three adjacent hexes next to an enemy then meleed with a fourth unit directly opposite the three (from the rear of the enemy). The enemy has lost the melee, but slipped out to one side. I can't say for sure now which way the enemy unit was facing, but I thought all three of the 'holding' units were in it's front facing hexes.

Or do I have to galvanize to learn the answer [:)]?


Your humble servant,
Gen 'Dee Dubya' Mallory

David W. Mallory
ACW - General, Chief of the Armies, Confederate States of America & Cabinet Member
CCC - Sergeant, Georgia Volunteers, Southern Regional Deaprtment, Colonial American Army

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by dmallory</i>
I think it is the former, but I'm not sure. I've placed units in three adjacent hexes next to an enemy then meleed with a fourth unit directly opposite the three (from the rear of the enemy). The enemy has lost the melee, but slipped out to one side. I can't say for sure now which way the enemy unit was facing, but I thought all three of the 'holding' units were in it's front facing hexes.
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Yes. It's exactly the other way round. The three rear hexes need to be occupied by units. Where the melee comes from is unimportant.

Gen. Walter, USA
<i>The Blue Blitz</i>
Reserve Artillery, AoS

Sirs . . . to my unnerstanding of it . . . in HPS . . . one hassta surround a Unit in all 6 adjacent hexes to be assured of a ZoC "Kill".

P'raps I am mistaken?? [;)]

T'wouldn't be the 1st time!!! [:p]

Pat.

Patrick G.M.Carroll,
Brigadier General.
Carroll's Corps,(II)
"Spartan Southrons"
Army of Georgia.
C.S.A.Cabinet Secretary

" When My Country takes it's rightful place, amongst the Nations of the World, then and only then, let My Epitaph be written. "

The correct answer is "It depends."[:D]

To have a sure thing kill by melee of a non-isolated unit you must have a unit in every adjacent hex since there is no retreat through an enemy hex.

Now for exceptions. Under certain circumstances a unit will "surrender" rather than retreat when all the "valid" paths of retreat are not blocked by enemy units. I have observed this in BG Gettysburg when Rebel units occupied all the east side hexes of a Union unit and meleed it. I seen it happen in HPS games but I can't validate that.

It also looks like once a unit becomes "isolated" even if not routed there are more situations that can lead to its surrender rather than retreating through soft ZOC to freedom. Unfortunately, they usually catch me by surprise and I didn't observe the situation accurately enough to document it.

The internal "rule" being triggered that causes these captures is that a unit must retreat from a melee it loses using a valid retreat path. This is not a route retreat but before the route morale check. There is no requirement, I think, that a unit that routes has to actually retreat although it will attempt too. But a unit that loses a melee does have to retreat and it must use a valid path. It's that "valid path" that can cause the surrender. The path can be through soft ZOC but it must move the unit further from enemy units and toward a supply source. How the computer determines what does and does not meet this criteria isn't always clear but it seems to be pretty liberal in its interpretation. But every once in a while you will see it decide that there is no "valid path" in spite of plenty of open space to go too and the unit dies. May it always be Yankee units.[:D]

BG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
III Corps, AoM (CSA)

Gentlemen,

A sure ZOC Kill in HPS is accomplished by ocupying the three rear hexes and having the three foward hexes all covered by your ZOC (one unit in the center will do). I does not mater from which quarter the melee comes. But don't Tell Brig Gen Patrick Carrol as I am currently engaged with him in a Gettysburg Campaign.[:D]

Lt Gen Joseph C. Mishurda



Lt General Joseph C. Mishurda,
"Killer Angels"
XXV Corps, AoJ

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by jmishurda</i>
<br />Gentlemen,

A sure ZOC Kill in HPS is accomplished by ocupying the three rear hexes and having the three foward hexes all covered by your ZOC (one unit in the center will do). I does not mater from which quarter the melee comes.
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Actually a unit *adjacent* to all forward hexes suffices. It doesn't have to exert a ZOC. It can face away for instance.

Gen. Walter, USA
<i>The Blue Blitz</i>
Reserve Artillery, AoS

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by D.S. Walter</i>
[br
Actually a unit *adjacent* to all forward hexes suffices. It doesn't have to exert a ZOC. It can face away for instance.

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Until...I just meleed a unit in one of the G-burg scenarios. It was in column, disordered, and so I waltzed into the 3 rear hexes, ZOC'ed the front ones, and then watched as it retreated <i>forward</i> and lives to fight another day. I was, to say the least, a bit surprised!

Maj Gen Sean Turner
3rd Cavalry Division, "The Bishop's Men"
I Corps
Army of Alabama

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Sean Turner</i>
Until...I just meleed a unit in one of the G-burg scenarios. It was in column, disordered, and so I waltzed into the 3 rear hexes, ZOC'ed the front ones, and then watched as it retreated <i>forward</i> and lives to fight another day. I was, to say the least, a bit surprised!
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So am I. I have used the elimination as described in all my games ever since Corinth game out in 2001 and it has never failed me. Unless you indicidentally left a rear hex open, or a front hex was not adjacent to a unit, I cannot see how it could have happened.

Gen. Walter, USA
<i>The Blue Blitz</i>
Reserve Artillery, AoS

After running some quick tests it looks like Gen. Walters is correct. The deciding factor is that all three of the rear hexes (must be rear hexes) are occupied by enemy units. If the unit is meleed from the front with ZOC's in all front hexes, it will be eliminated rather than retreat through the two unoccupied hexes ragardless of facing.

The critical requirement seems to be that there be enemy units in all three rear hexes. If even one of the rear hexes is ZOC'ed instead, the unit will retreat through any open hexside.

My test configuration was four stacks attacking. Three occupied the rear three hexes and one occupied the front facing hex. The front facing hex unit executed the melee. I haven't test all the possible alternate ways this could be done (i.e. melee from one of the rear, only ZOC on front hexes (no unit in hex), melee from one of the side front hexes, etc.). I did verify that direction to supplay source didn't affect the outcome.

Not tested but I believe I have observed and will try to test is sometimes elimination occurs even though a units isn't surrounded if it can't retreat away from the enemy and toward a supplay source. This is going to be harder to verify though.

BG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
III Corps, AoM (CSA)

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by KWhitehead</i>
Not tested but I believe I have observed and will try to test is sometimes elimination occurs even though a units isn't surrounded if it can't retreat away from the enemy and toward a supplay source. This is going to be harder to verify though.
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Yes--there are some surprises, occasionally. Note, however, that the game engine doesn't differentiate between ZOC eliminations and overstacking kills. Sometimes it may be the latter, especially with Partial Retreats off.

Gen. Walter, USA
<i>The Blue Blitz</i>
Reserve Artillery, AoS

I'll have to check when I get the next turn, but as I remember it was 3 rear hexes occupied, one frontal hex, the other 2 hexes (frontal) ZOC'ed. I meleed from the direct rear (basically to get that unit closer to the action), and it retreated straight to its front (which was also towards Cemetary Ridge, so the way it wanted to go anyway). So it was still adjacent to one of my units, and in said unit's ZOC. Maybe it got confused b/c it was retreating forward to the rear? [:o)]

Anyway, never seen it before as every time previously they died.



Maj Gen Sean Turner
3rd Cavalry Division, "The Bishop's Men"
I Corps
Army of Alabama

For Gen Whitehead - If you come upon a Routed unit that is also Isolated (ie, was Isolated, then Routed out of the isolation) a single unit melee'ing the Routed, Isolated unit from any direction will eliminate it. No other hexes need be filled. You can also achieve a ZOC kill without <i>occupying</i> the forward hexes. If you have the three rear hexes occupied, and can ensure that the three forward hexes are adjacent to one of your units, the enemy unit will be eliminated, ie will not rout to a forward hex that would place it adjacent to an enemy - regardless of unit type I believe. So even if the unit exerts no ZOC (limbered arty, supply wagon) the enemy will be eliminated. It's the presence of the unit, not the ZOC that controls the situation.

I've made a pretty good living against you Rebs knowing this rule set inside and out![}:)][:p]

Again, superb article at the Union War College on all this in the HPS system...[:D]


General Jeff Laub
Union Chief of the Army
ACWGC Cabinet Member
http://www.geocities.com/laubster22/UnionHQ/