Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)

Why a move don't change a fatigue of units?
It's important for the great scenarios.






Polkovnik Alexandr Zaytsev
Siberia GrReg / 2GrDiv / VIII / 2AW
http://www.nwc.albom55.ru/

Yes, its been discussed. Right now its not a part of the game but it could be coming in a future title.

I would want it to be OPTIONAL though as not all players agree with it being a part of the game.

Colonel Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by AAZ</i>
<br />Why a move don't change a fatigue of units?
It's important for the great scenarios.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Hi Alexandr

Fatigue in the games was originally intended to represent psychological fatigue, (stress), not physical fatigue.

That is why unit fatigue increases when units are shot at and not when they move.

There is no physical fatigue element in the game although, the reduction of movement at night (in scenarios where one night turn = 1 hour and 1 day turn = 15 minutes) indicates that the unit is resting for 75% of the time during a night turn.

If physical fatigue is added to the games, a definite bonus, I hope it is kept entirely separate from the current psychological fatigue as the causes, effect and recovery rate are entirely different for these two parameters.

Regards

Mark

Hi Mark,

I to would like to see some type of march fatigue. However if you do not use it with some kind of reduction in battle effect/efficiency what would you do? How would you see it being effective?

Im just interested in different ideas in this area as i have played campaigns (miniatures and kriegspiel) and have yet to find an alternative that was both a deterent and had adequate advantages to do it (the forced march).

Regards


Col Mike Ellwood
Konig Regt
1 Bde, 22 Div
VII Saxon Corps, ADR

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Mark Eason</i>
<br />

Fatigue in the games was originally intended to represent psychological fatigue, (stress), not physical fatigue.

That is why unit fatigue increases when units are shot at and not when they move.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Hi Mark

Yes, I know, but...

This is a problem from Battleground. The scenarios of this series of one day. But in the HPS-scenario we have 2, 3, ... 6!-day battles.

A Soldiers can not to move and fire several days without a rest. If a soldier don't rest, that he have a physical and psychological fatigues.
We are know many histories when an army march in the night and fight in the morning. But after finish of a battle a soldiers had a rest.

We can create many rules.
For instance: if division is moving in the night that it is resting in the day. And on the contrary. But as to follow.
So a players have to think up a different night rules. It is decide the problem, but to limit a manoeuvre.

???

But if a move change a fatigue of units that a player must to think after a night march: "Fight now or after a rest". It's history.





Polkovnik Alexandr Zaytsev
Siberia GrReg / 2GrDiv / VIII / 2AW
http://www.nwc.albom55.ru/

An interesting debate. I do agree with Mark though the fatigue rating is battle fatigue. There are quite a few examples of forced marched units fighting superbly in the Napoleonic wars. Such as Davout at Austerlitz.

I also agree that the extension of the night move to longer periods allows for the rest factor that is required at night. So I am not in favour of such a change.

However on balance perhaps the march fatigue (should it ever be introduced) should require a forced marched unit to rest for an equivelent number of moves it was force marched otherwise be in a disordered state.

Happy new year!



General de Brigade Knox
Baron de l'Empire
2e Regiment Gardes d'Honneur (the regaled pheasants)
La Jeune Garde
CO. 1er Brigade, III Division Cavalerie Legere, III Corps Armee du Nord
http://www.aspire.co.nz/colinknoxnwc.htm

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Mike Ellwood</i>
<br />

I to would like to see some type of march fatigue. However if you do not use it with some kind of reduction in battle effect/efficiency what would you do? How would you see it being effective?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Hi Mike

With the current game turn structure (long night turns, short day turns), rest is built into the night turns. A movment rate, (without road bonus) of 6 hexes/turn equates to movement of approximately 27 miles in 24 hours (assuming 16 hour day, 8 hour night; 15 minute/turn day, 1 hour/turn night). ie. just over one mile per hour, or a simulation of 3 miles/hour for 9 hours and the rest of the time for rest and leisure!

If players want to race their troops around on the motorways, with a movement of 12 hexes/turn, this would double the distance covered to 54 miles in a 24 hour period at 2.25 miles/hour or 18 hours marching at 3 miles an hour and only 6 hours of rest, (tough, but it was done and battles fought at the end).

So I see the introduction of physical fatigue as a mechanism to deter players from continually doing something that was (albeit very occasionally) done. A simple way to achieve this without introducing a new parameter would be to increase the probablility of ammunition depletion and control road movement by the speed of the ammunition wagons. That would discourage units making strategic moves from outdistancing their supplies and, at the same time, allow realistic movement rates on the battlefield.

If a physical fatigue element was introduced to the game, I would see this principally as a reduction in movement. During combat the men are running on adrenalin, gin, rum, brandy etc. and I don't see physical fatigue having a significant impact.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Im just interested in different ideas in this area as i have played campaigns (miniatures and kriegspiel) and have yet to find an alternative that was both a deterent and had adequate advantages to do it (the forced march).<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

The penalty in the case I propose above would be those that occur for units going low/no-ammunition. Reduced morale, reduced melee capability, reduced fire. Any force caught too far from its supplies would not last long in combat. Deterent enough? Not sure.

Regards

Mark

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by AAZ</i>
<br />
Hi Mark

Yes, I know, but...

This is a problem from Battleground. The scenarios of this series of one day. But in the HPS-scenario we have 2, 3, ... 6!-day battles.

A Soldiers can not to move and fire several days without a rest. If a soldier don't rest, that he have a physical and psychological fatigues.
We are know many histories when an army march in the night and fight in the morning. But after finish of a battle a soldiers had a rest.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Hi Alexandr

The game, whether Battleground or HPS has rest periods built into the night turns because of their duration. If a night turn is 4 times longer than a day turn, a unit moves only 25% of distance at night so must be resting for 75% of every night turn.


<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">We can create many rules.
For instance: if division is moving in the night that it is resting in the day. And on the contrary. But as to follow.
So a players have to think up a different night rules. It is decide the problem, but to limit a manoeuvre.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I understand the problem of having a strategic marching distance that is realistic without affecting the rate of movement on the battlefield. I would propose slowing units making strategic marches by slowing the rate of their supply waggons (see post to Mike below). But I do not see the need for a division that moved during the night to have to rest, as it has already rested for 75% of the night.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">But if a move change a fatigue of units that a player must to think after a night march: "Fight now or after a rest". It's history.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I know what you are saying but I maintain that, a unit has spent 75% of the night resting, it will only have physical fatigue if it has been moving day and night using road movement rate, (54 miles in 24 hours). If it had been moving at only 6 hexes per turn, it would have only covered 27 miles in 24 hours. This would be reduced by terrain features causing defiles and players who do not wish their army stretched out on a road, vulnerable to a flank attack and, after passing defiles need to deploy flanking forces etc.

But I believe that the effect of physical fatigue can be simulated / negated without the need to introduce another parameter or build in any house rules.

Regards

Mark

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Colin Knox</i>
<br />...
However on balance perhaps the march fatigue (should it ever be introduced) should require a forced marched unit to rest for an equivelent number of moves it was force marched otherwise be in a disordered state.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Hi Colin

The challenge becomes to decide when a unit has made a forced march. Should a unit have a number of movement fatigue points that it can expend a number of each turn and recovers them during periods of inactivity? This might actually work, that way a unit could move the same distance in a turn whether uphill or on the level, but expend more movement fatigue points to achieve this. As physical fatigue increases the allowable number of points to be expended would diminish each turn.

Such a feature would be nice, but I don't think we will see such a major modification built into the engine.

In the meantime, I prefer to look for solutions to simulate this within the current game features, that do not require another level of house rules.

Regards

Mark

Hi Mark,

Yes I see what you are saying and yes I agree the march rate of night and day on the "expressways" is at the top end of the reality scale.

I too agree the night movement of 25%/75% is a good feature and ample due to the historical lack of large scale night moves. they are more trouble than they are worth unless very well organised and lead.

However I think if we want to try not to mess too much with the engine and house rules the simplest solution is still have fatigue added for a set rate of continual movement.

I would suggest a non fatiguing rate that is slightly less than a full hour march (maybe 5/6th). So then if you marched for two hrs straight- 1 fatigue factor is added to the unit. You could move 1hr and 50 min then rest 10min and then another 1hr 50min before taking another rest and get no fatigue.

This is slightly more than current (western) military units take for forced marches.

So for a 12 hr day of marching you could rest for a total of 1hr during the day and still be non fatigued. Thus reducing your overall distance on the "expressway" by 1/12th. More in keeping with resonably good forced march rates.

This can be done to both the 10min and 15min games where for every two hrs 1 turn is sacrificed in rest. Rest being NO movement what-so- ever!

To remove a fatigue point I would let the current system work as is.

This to me keeps it simple but still with real effect when it comes to the battle without being overly harsh. Then the commanders have the option to march and fight with reduced fatigue or march/rest with little effect. I much prefer the chioce being the commanders but increasing the penalty the more 'risk' he takes.

I think that would be doable with the engine. Someone corrrect me if Im wrong [:D], I am a techno dwarf in these matters[8D].

Col Mike Ellwood
Konig Regt
1 Bde, 22 Div
VII Saxon Corps, ADR