Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)

although i like the 10 minute turns for battles i am finding that when playing a campaign of manouver they create a rather tedious game. I am playing the Ulm Campaign and if you add weather into the mix the game just moves at a snails pace. With mud movement grinds to a halt. Artillery cannot move one hex and unlimber, supply will move only one hex off road. I am now into turn 200 and have yet to have any major fighting. It is really pretty boring.

Marechal Jonathan Thayer
Duc de Saalfeld et Prince de Friedland
1/10/III
Armee du Nord




jonathanthayer@bellsouth.net

Hmm, have you read about this campaign? The weather was just plain awful Jon. It was like the 17th/18th of June in 1815. Mud made travel on the roads awful.

This was a campaign that I knew would not get as much play due to the historical realities I plugged in. Add to it that it uses 10 min. moves.

All I can say is that the formation column move makes these turns go quicker than if you are fighting a full battle with units scattered all over the landscape.

For a future update I will consider a 15 min. version. But someone else would have to do a "no weather" version as frankly that is like saying that you can move freely as the Germans in the Fall of 1941. Its just not realistic.

A "no-weather" version would be easy for someone to do. Just copy the campaign file, rename it, copy the folder ULM, create a new PDT file leaving out the weather lines, change the PDT file name in the .scn files to the new one.

I personally do not see merit in "no-weather" versions.

There are some issues with the movement allowance as it concerns disordered/routed units that is hard to swallow but I can't change that. As it is they move at 1/2 MPs. Something that I can't change via a PDT file.

I would prefer that routed units not move at all during the pre-turn portion of the turn. I would prefer that they be moved by the player at full MP rate. Sheesh, even 1.5 MP rate as routed units were very hard to catch. They were not marching in formation. They were racing for the exits. But that is for a different discussion entirely and one that wont achieve anything as John will not budge on this.

The entire weather effects modify the game quite a bit, I know this, but hey, it happened that way in history too. Artillery in October of 1805 were greatly hampered by the weather.

You will note in the latest Eckmuhl update that weather was added in as well. The Spring portion of the campaign featured some awful roads as well during some of the days. But of course that title uses 15 min moves and you notice it as much.

I will add in a 15 min. version of this campaign as a way of thanking folks for buying the game. They will have to put out a "no weather" version on their own.

Colonel Bill Peters, 17th Dragoons, III Corps, French Army
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt, Austerlitz and ... more to come)
Swiss-Swedish Army CinC, Musket and Cannon Game Club - Come over and see what we are all about!

Another thing that slows the game overly much is the night effect on movement. I am not one for moving units all through the night, but there are some cases where limited movement makes sense. The way the game handles it is a bit extreme in that turns are 3 times as long yet movement rates drop by 20% per turn, resulting in a movement rate that is about 26% of what it is in daylight. Blundering through woods and fields this might make some sense, but marching in column along a road the last little bit to get the pioneers started on bridge repairs (say until 9 or 10 p.m.) should not be slowed that much.

Likewise, the turns are three times as long, but pioneers still repair bridges at the same number of points per turn meaning they are in effect 67% slower -- again, a bit much.

Maréchal Theron Lambert
Grande Duc de Montereau et Duc d'Angers
Cavalerie du V Corps
Armee du Rhin
Commandant Grenadiers a Pied "les Grognards"

Hmm, in full defense of the Austerlitz/Jena night system ... how would you like it if I used the Waterloo/NRC method?

One turn = one hour!

Come on Theron. You get twice as many night moves in Austerlitz and Jena. Each turn is 30 minutes.

I end my defense on this account.

Colonel Bill Peters, 17th Dragoons, III Corps, French Army
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt, Austerlitz and ... more to come)
Swiss-Swedish Army CinC, Musket and Cannon Game Club - Come over and see what we are all about!

Bill,

Not trying to be critical, but the question is not whether it's better, worse or equal to other games; it's whether a 76% movement rate reduction and a 67% repair rate reduction is realistic. The turns can be longer or shorter for all I care, since there ought not be fighting or large scale maneuver anyway, but I'd like my pioneers to be able to accomplish a reasonable amount of work during the interval however large or small it is and for those troops who have a little bit of movement to do to be able to get it over with reasonably quickly so they can be tucked into bed at a reasonable hour.

Regards,

Maréchal Theron Lambert
Grande Duc de Montereau et Duc d'Angers
Cavalerie du V Corps
Armee du Rhin
Commandant Grenadiers a Pied "les Grognards"

Sigh. Read the campaign. The Artillery was not very mobile. You are trying to move them 100 meters in 10 minutes during mud type weather and then get them to unlimber. Get out a team some muddy day and try that out. You cant do it.

The current setup is VERY realistic. Read about the campaign. The Austrian columns could not move very fast if they hauled their artillery with them.

Remember, Mack moved into Ulm well before this time period.

Anyway, its how it should be. Movement is greatly reduced due to the weather.

Colonel Bill Peters, 17th Dragoons, III Corps, French Army
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt, Austerlitz and ... more to come)
Swiss-Swedish Army CinC, Musket and Cannon Game Club - Come over and see what we are all about!

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Theron Lambert</i>
Likewise, the turns are three times as long, but pioneers still repair bridges at the same number of points per turn meaning they are in effect 67% slower -- again, a bit much.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Two guys holding the torches for each one that works? [;)]

<center>
[url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_walter/NWC/2nd_Dragoons.htm"][/url]
Maj. Gen. D.S. "Green Horse" Walter
~ 2nd Dragoons (Royal Scots Greys) ~
2nd (Union) Brigade, Cavalry Division, Anglo-Allied II Corps
----------
~ 3rd (Prince of Wales's) Dragoon Guards ~
[url="http://home.scarlet.be/~tsh40803/AAA/BritGuardHorse.html"][/url]
</center>

Must be a union requirement.[}:)]

Field Marshall
Ed Blackburn
Commanding Second Div, II Corps, AAA
3rd Bn / 1st Regiment of Foot Guards

Bill,

I enjoy the game. You did good work. And I understand the effects of mud -- unfortunately I've had opportunity to get well acquainted with it a time or two. But again you miss my point. It's not how fast or slow they move during the day, but the huge differential between what can be accomplished at night vs. the day in particular as it applies to pioneers and secondarily as it applies to a unit continuing to march down the pike for an hour or so after dark to close up with the rest of the column. I still submit that pioneers working 67% slower at night(due to increased turn length w/out a corresponding increase in build points/turn) and moving 74% slower (combined effect of longer turns and reduced movement/turn) is a bit excessive.

Regards,

Maréchal Theron Lambert
Grande Duc de Montereau et Duc d'Angers
Cavalerie du V Corps
Armee du Rhin
Commandant Grenadiers a Pied "les Grognards"

Ok - final word on this - who in the world can get a pioneer to work 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days out of the year?

You cant!

Working at night was harder than working during the day. Trying to build a bridge at night is much more difficult. You cant see what you are doing. Even with torches, bonfires, etc it was painstaking work.

The slowdown for the pioneer is good. You cant start up a pioneer repairing a bridge at 8am and expect him to still be repairing other bridges all day long and then move him to another bridge and get him to continue repairing bridges through the entire night.

Thus any lost points you are not seeing rebuilt due to time is correct. So in one hour during the day for instance you could with one pioneer repair something like 12 points on the bridge. During the night only 6.

GOOD!!! The last thing we need are super pioneers.

Now do this in Waterloo. You get to repair THREE (3) points of bridge damage. I thought that this was pretty clear in my last post.

In the 10 minute system you get to repair MORE bridge points! Do the math. You get 1.5 more turns per day in a 10 min. scenario over a 15 min. scenario. So how in the world are you getting ripped off?

Ok, trying to be nice here but you are missing the entire point - you get more repair points in the 10 min. system. Maybe its wrong too! Maybe you should be getting LESS!

The entire Pioneer rule is abstract at best. Dont try and make it into a precise science. For instance at Lobau Island they had prebuilt bridges ready to swing into place at a precise time at Napoleon's orders (well his engineer's command). You can't build an entire section and then decide on what turn to suddenly turn that broken bridge location into a full span that can support artillery, wagons, etc.

Anyway, my last word on this. You get MORE points with a 10 minute turn.

As to the marching issue - I did alot of math on this one - 10 min. moves vs. 15 min Waterloo vs. 15 min. Eckmuhl. You cover alot of ground per day with 10 min. and it works out well for inclement weather too.

When all is said about this - copy the PDT file. Edit it. Change the values to what you want. Copy the scenario. Rename the .pdt file to your version. And enjoy playing it your way.

I can never please everyone that buys the game. That is why the OB, PDT and Scenario files can be edited.

Hey, make up a new version and be the big hero! Will make me look bad and hey, I can handle that! [:D]

Maybe I should wear a black hat at Tiller Con 3! [:p]

If Al Amos comes he would wear the white hat and everyone would hiss and boo me and cheer for Al! [;)]

Honesly, I am sorry if you are disappointed in the Ulm Campaign. Like I said, I plan on putting out a 15 min. version of the Campaign and standalone scenario. That will probably help for many. I know that I enjoy the 10 min. versions no matter how many turns it takes me to come to grips with my enemy/opponent.

Colonel Bill Peters, 17th Dragoons, III Corps, French Army
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt, Austerlitz and ... more to come)
Swiss-Swedish Army CinC, Musket and Cannon Game Club - Come over and see what we are all about!

Wow - this tells you how busy I have been - there is already a 15 min. version of the standalone historical scenario - its called #M15-06H-HTH-Ulm_Campaign.scn.

I note that I did not create a campaign version of the historical Ulm situation. I have a what-if campaign that allows Charles to show up. But not the historical Ulm situation.

Probably something I should add in a future update. And I will include a 15 min. version so that everyone is covered.

Colonel Bill Peters, 17th Dragoons, III Corps, French Army
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt, Austerlitz and ... more to come)
Swiss-Swedish Army CinC, Musket and Cannon Game Club - Come over and see what we are all about!

Im playing the Ulm big one-game version now and am finding it just fine. Its fun and plenty of scope for a bit of marching and fighting. Not all battles are won on the battle field . Will let you know if anything is strange or unpalatable [;)]

Keep up the good work Bill, we all appreciate the efforts and love the results. [:D]

Col Mike Ellwood
Commander Officer
3rd Dragoon Division
Reserve Cavalry

Thanks Mike. Not sure that everyone shares your feelings but the Ulm large map (to Augsburg) was a special achievement for me. It meant alot of extra work that I really hadn't planned on doing. Pretty much did it last June in my copious spare time! [:D]

The biggest room in a house is the room for improvement and each game finds me doing new things. My latest projects are going to have the benefit of all of my past experience along with new things that other folks come up with as well. I am always mining the community for tips and tricks.

Colonel Bill Peters, 17th Dragoons, III Corps, French Army
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt, Austerlitz and ... more to come)
Swiss-Swedish Army CinC, Musket and Cannon Game Club - Come over and see what we are all about!

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bill Peters</i>
<br />Thanks Mike. Not sure that everyone shares your feelings but the Ulm large map (to Augsburg) was a special achievement for me.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

It looks excellent. I grew up on that map, and the feel of it is excellent. Feels like home. [;)]

<center>
[url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_walter/NWC/2nd_Dragoons.htm"][/url]
Maj. Gen. D.S. "Green Horse" Walter
~ 2nd Dragoons (Royal Scots Greys) ~
2nd (Union) Brigade, Cavalry Division, Anglo-Allied II Corps
----------
~ 3rd (Prince of Wales's) Dragoon Guards ~
[url="http://home.scarlet.be/~tsh40803/AAA/BritGuardHorse.html"][/url]
</center>

I am playing the Ulm campaign with Mike. Great map and excellent campaign so far. Much room to maneuver and make decisions. Not a set piece battle, but one that can be very fluid if you want to play it that way.

Oberst Joseph 'Freiherr' Alberti
IR# 42 Graf Erbach, 2nd Division, I Armee Korps
Armee von Osterreich