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 Post subject: Game vs. Simulation
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:53 am 
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Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 10:18 am
Posts: 6156
I wanted to comment on the various things about the HPS/JTS games that makes up the profile of most of us here.

I see basically four groups of players in the club:

1. Historical first, game second.

2. Lean towards history but love a good game too.

3. Lean towards game and history is secondary.

4. I am not picky - I prefer to use whatever the game allows no matter whether it is historical or not.

The H&R guys fall in the first group. I am a #2 guy. #3 is a rare group of folks here but it may exist. I have seen them in other clubs though and they are mainly "game players" with history being PART of the process. In other words they would not be interested in a heavily historical simulation that bogs them down.

The blitz crowd runs in #4. Why? Because IF they were really out for historical flavor they would not play like they do. They would be into House Rules that restrict their ability to run a player over in so many turns.

I find that #2 usually brings out the most in a PLAYER. And that is what most of us are here. When you get into #1 you end up with a ton of chrome and things that entangle the player and cause him to have to do a ton of things each turn that make no sense in the end because the end result was similar to what was achieved in the game anyway.

Example: #1 player usually invokes a ton of House Rules. #2 will use them but only when they do not make the game terribly cumbersome.

Ok - that much said now a list of customers types:

1. Micro Manager - wants to be able to position everything the way they like it. Does not trust the AI at all as a rule to do that for them. While this does not apply to our games as much they would never consider a "Command Control" game where they give orders via the Leader Dialog in the game (AI moves units) nor are they interested in playing in an Umpire Game where they submit orders and the Umpire moves their units for them. (not saying that this person does this because of the AI - saying that they are Micro Managers regardless)

2. Brigade Commander - this player likes to position his brigades correctly but really would prefer for a strong AI to handle the rest. Yes, they are concerned about things like forming square only when necessary but they see some of the AI things as "part of the historical process" meaning that the real guys made mental errors.

3. Corps Commander - would like to give the corps a command and watch the entire game unfold in that manner. Definitely a "Battle Mananger" and while they do care about the placement of troops and want a good AI they are more interested in getting the troops to a location and bringing the most to the table to overpower an opponent or to reinforce a key area at the crucial moment.

I tend to fit into #2. While I am not the micromanger type I also am not content to just give orders to a corps and watch the entire process unfold.

So what if you could have a game that allowed you to move units like the miniature rules "Napoleons Battles" by Avalon Hill (and now 3rd Ed. by Lost Battalion Games)? Is such a game possible. I am thinking it is.

What we could see is a game that is Operational in scope but that would allow for a series of battle maps to be used (40+). The designer would put together maps that are typical of an area while the programmer would have a operational level movement system for the divisions/brigades and allow for battles where the players resolve the issue using a turn based WE PLOT/WE GO system. The brigades would have set formations for you to use. Less concern would be on the actual positioning. The matchups would be more of interest. Flank attacks still possible but not from such a small level as the current format we play in.

Thus the unit would be the brigade or division. Basically a grouping from 3-10 battalions.

Ratings:

Size
Morale
Training
Weapon (for most of the infantry this would not matter - at this scale the difference between a rifle or a musket would be trivial but for cannon it would be matter)

The emphasis would be more on #2 - lean towards history but love a good game too.

This would not be a "Two 3-3 brigades " attacks a "4-3 brigade" - the brigades would have values and national characteristics.

This level would work for campaigns. A ground scale of 50 kms per operational hex and 600 meters per tactical game hex.

Food for thought and perhaps a good boardgame adaptation would also work as well.

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Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, VP4LC, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.07)


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 Post subject: Re: Game vs. Simulation
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:59 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 4:11 pm
Posts: 1765
Location: New Zealand
Bill you are missing a category

5. The game engine and all game engines are flawed tactical intepretations

So utilise to the maximum within it’s contstraints and agreed house rules with an opponent but lean towards history at an operational level through the art of manuever.

As regardless of tactical system / simulation used this is where true simulation can take place as their is no subjectivity or debate in it. Its all down to player skill.

regards

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Marechal Knox

Prince d'Austerlitz et Comte d'Argentan
Ordre national de la Légion d'honneur

"What is history but a fable agreed upon"


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 Post subject: Re: Game vs. Simulation
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:29 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 10:18 am
Posts: 6156
Actually that is either #2 or #3.

We all realize that your comment about ANY simulation not being realistic completely - that is more or less a no-brainer. No game/simulation can ever perfectly capture the real thing.

Thus I place your category in either #2 or #3.

_________________
Image

Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, VP4LC, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.07)


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 Post subject: Re: Game vs. Simulation
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:04 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 4:11 pm
Posts: 1765
Location: New Zealand
fair enough Bill :D

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Marechal Knox

Prince d'Austerlitz et Comte d'Argentan
Ordre national de la Légion d'honneur

"What is history but a fable agreed upon"


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 Post subject: Re: Game vs. Simulation
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 7:38 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 10:18 am
Posts: 6156
Hey, if you are having bar-b-que tonite at your place ... I will stop in! LOL :D

We can talk about old board games and past (better forgotten) battles!

I wish! Have always wanted to see either island of NZ since reading Leon Uris' Battle Cry. :lol:

_________________
Image

Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, VP4LC, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.07)


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