Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)

200 years ago the first French troops managed to cross the Berezina and drive off weak cossacks outposts. It was a beginning of the last major battle of the campaign. The French fought with bravery of a cornered rat, the Russians fought with a full understanding they were the victors and they couldn't yield.

Usually the result is percieved in a very simplistic way - Napoleon managed to get out, that is definately his major victory. Usually the cost of his salvation is not considered. But even according to the most francophilic sources the French lost about 21 thousand out of about 30 thousand men who still were with their colors. That is about 70% of the force. Taking into account that the guard remained more or less intact with a strength after the battle of around 4000 it was a destruction of the army on an unprecedented scale.

Compared to that Friedland, Jena, Austerlitz, Wagram were actually marginal defeats. One may argue that the battle didn't end the war. Very true. But it allowed to occupy the space between Berezina and Elbe. More than thousand kilometers away from each other.

In the short run the result of the battle meant that the french were too weak to try to take Minsk. By the time it was a tiny town, but there were huge stores of food and fourage accumilated there since the summer. The loss of them not only meant that the French would have to continue their march almost without any food supplies. It also meant that for the Russians the problem of supplies was not so important.

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Some historians call it now a French strategic victory...

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Général David Guegan

3ème Régiment de Grenadiers - Bataillon d'élite du 3ème Légère
2ème Brigade
Grenadiers de la Réserve
Réserve
La Grande Armée
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"From the sublime to the ridiculous is but a step."
Napoléon Bonaparte

Military justice is to justice what military music is to music.
Groucho Marx

"But even according to the most francophilic sources the French lost about 21 thousand out of about 30 thousand men who still were with their colors. That is about 70% of the force. Taking into account that the guard remained more or less intact with a strength after the battle of around 4000 it was a destruction of the army on an unprecedented scale. "

Anton, you must not play these games much any more. That's a pretty typical result.

Unfortunately - it is so.

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General-Leytenant Alexey Tartyshev
Leib-Guard Preobrazhensky Regiment (Grenadier Drum)
1st Brigade
Guard Infantry Division
5th Guard Corps


(I don't play with with ZOC kills and Rout limiting ON)

Al, thanks for your care! That's why I:
1. do not play much. Except the tournaments.
2. spend time with the guys working on H&R. There to suffer 30% loses you need to drive your troops really hard.

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Général David Guegan

3ème Régiment de Grenadiers - Bataillon d'élite du 3ème Légère
2ème Brigade
Grenadiers de la Réserve
Réserve
La Grande Armée
--------------------------
"From the sublime to the ridiculous is but a step."
Napoléon Bonaparte

Military justice is to justice what military music is to music.
Groucho Marx

David,

they didn't mention the number of raped. A hundred thousand millions, not less. Of them 150 millions personally by Stalin. Even here reached the bloody terran.

One must live in truth! So, please, could you help with initiation of the process of lustrating alive the authors of French, German, Itallian and Russian pages on Wiki.

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Hi Anton,

I am not sure to understand what you mean... What does rapes and Staline have to do with the battle of Berezina? As amateur historians we have to do our best to detach ourselves from National pride and politics.

I respect greatly the Russian people and their feat on the field of battle during the Napoleonic wars (and the following wars but it's not the subject of this club). They were resilient and formidable fighter, one just have to look at the battle of Borodino (or as we call it in France la Bataille de la Moskova) to see what they were capable of.

I mean sure the Battle is a tragic loss for the French Army (and its allies) tactically when you look at numbers; there is no doubt about it but you have to recognize that the Russians couldn't finish them. The army was able to escape at a great cost, but it did escape. The Partouneaux's division sacrifice in the South helped the main army in the north. It took some time to the Russians to realize that the crossing was taking place in the north.

http://www.wtj.com/articles/berezina/index.htm

There is a nice book on my to buy/to read list http://www.napoleon-series.org/reviews/ ... ezina.html

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Général David Guegan

3ème Régiment de Grenadiers - Bataillon d'élite du 3ème Légère
2ème Brigade
Grenadiers de la Réserve
Réserve
La Grande Armée
--------------------------
"From the sublime to the ridiculous is but a step."
Napoléon Bonaparte

Military justice is to justice what military music is to music.
Groucho Marx

Sir,

Also synonym of the river Berezina as river of blood results by passivity Russians and rivalry between Cziczagow and Kutuzov in capturing the Emperor Napoleon. A Bonaparte, as usual, showed talent on the occasion of saving about 47,000 soldiers ... 1000 as a landing troops ... 20000 across the bridge for infantry ... 4000 across the bridge for artillery ... 22,000 refugees and stragglers ... of course, subtract the losses in Stachów and died of wounds later ... and leaves that set off the Vilnius 38000, of which 9,000 under arms...

So write, so I read.

And as usual, the Poles were at the end of Napoleon.

As the landing troops, as the engineers in the construction of the bridge, as Avangarda of cavalry, as the rearguard of infantry.

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Général de Brigade Cezary Pluskwa,
17ème Régiment de Dragons,
1ère Brigade,
4ème Division de Dragons,
3ème Corps d'Armée,
La Grande Armée.

David,

It's a grotesque not far away from The Chewbacca defense (see here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clKi92j6eLE). I agree, being translated it lost most of the charm.

I must say, that I too respect greatly the French people and their feat on the field of battle during the Napoleonic wars (and the following wars but it's not the subject of this club). They were resilient and formidable fighter, one just have to look at the battle of Borodino (or as you call it in France la Bataille de la Moskova RIVIERE) to see what they were capable of.

What I meant, and what is in line with your

is that a normal unbiassed study may not be substituted with idealogical stamps. We had such a period and finally overcame it. Nowday, among terricons of garbage, we have quite a few brilliant studies of the era. I can only regret you guys do not know Russian. The waterbreak is simple. Does the study use primary sources from both sides or not. If it does not, it principially can't be unbiassed. Beacuse, quite naturally, both sides lied about their successes (exaggerated), setbacks (diminished) and loses (underestimated). Among the english language studies that used extensively I can only mention Dr. Lieven and Alexand Mikaberidze. Plus to some limited extent Arnold. Maybe there are others, I didn't read them.

What I write about Berezina is based on Vasiliev's studies of the subject. It's a great study intensely exploiting sources of Russian, French, Polish, German and Itallian origin. It feels rather realistic and rather good. Hope you understand that I can neither quote nor translate a book several hundred pages long in a language you can't read. So it comes down to urging you believe my word. Not the best argument, I admit. But the english article on Wiki you mentioned is much worse.

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I found 1 article about the soldiers of La Grande Armee settling in Russia after the defeat... An interesting view:

http://english.ruvr.ru/2012_12_03/How-N ... ia-Part-I/

http://english.ruvr.ru/2012_12_04/How-N ... a-Part-II/



So they would be the only two you can recommend (so far)?

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Général David Guegan

3ème Régiment de Grenadiers - Bataillon d'élite du 3ème Légère
2ème Brigade
Grenadiers de la Réserve
Réserve
La Grande Armée
--------------------------
"From the sublime to the ridiculous is but a step."
Napoléon Bonaparte

Military justice is to justice what military music is to music.
Groucho Marx