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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:01 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 12:32 am
Posts: 908
Location: Moscow, Russia
Colin,

1. The morale is no longer so low. In H&R 1.03 at the beginning of scenario "average" regular units have effective morale C. Nominally it's B, but taking int account high fatigue it's reduced to C. Hence no rout fest and no specific tactics associated with making enemy rout at enormous pace.

2. The point was not to prohibit melee. The point was to give defending side a chance. In Bill's scenarios it's simply about bringing large masses into a single hex. Even though these masses highly exceed what usually could be stacked into such a small space.

We had several checkpoints, i.e. several situations that must happen with reasonable probability (frequency).
-single battalion attacking another single battalion defeats it;
-single battalion defending against two attacking battalions stands the ground;
-single charging squadron defeats single non squared battalion, etc.
The settings in 1.03 satisfy most of these requirements. With different notions of reasonability, of course :roll:

Although the setting does not outright prohibit melee it makes a fail [very] probable. And next we have all the evolution of Napoleonic time warfare in a hex. You can simply attack and drive away over extended enemy. But if his density is normal you need to soften him up at first with arty. But then he may have arty of his own, then you are to deploy a grand battery that will destroy everything in front of it, but your enemy can deploy it two. Finally you have Borodino or Liberwoltkowitz with several hundreds tubes on a narrow front on each side and "no living creature" zone in between them.

Does that mean that all of the battles are dull battles of attrition? I think not. Yes, you both deploy grand batteries, but you do it a few turns earlier and can launch a devastating assault while enemy still deploys. Or you found a key spot that allows you to roll up enemy line. Or managed to turn the flank. Or... Well, it's you who should teach me tactical lessons, not vice versa. The point is all this is still possible. All this tactical brilliance became even more important. But one must have in mind that now the defending side can try to bring it to a dull dumb battle of attrition. And its opportunities of doing so increased dramatically.

3. Stacking limit is set 900. What could prevent you from stacking two in-line halves of the battalion together literally reproducing the formation you wrote about? But in H&R 1.03 it would have firepower a bit higher that that of a single batallion. Or exactly equal if you prohibit going to the top of stack with a house rule. The formation you talk about in Bill's scenarios has tremendous effective firepower greatly increasing that of a 400 man strong unit.

David,

I must make two points.

First, please do read the document here http://www.nwc.albom55.ru/hrp/pic/H&R%20Main.pdf
Pages 3-9 are devoted to in depth description of why and how we selected parameters and what we've achieved. I feel comments and questions should be posed to this extensive (6 pages long!) text, not my three rachitic lines.

Second, the picture you present is great. But what it depicts? A very good account of the battle of Eylau is given by Arnold in his Crisis in the Snows. If you follow the narrative you will notice that the cavalry did move into the attack in this column. It passed it's own line like that. but when it came to melees the regiments deployed into lines of squadrons 2 ranks deep and charged home. Sometimes followed by reserves at distances of more than 100 meters.

Sorry for the numerous typos. I'm on a busyness trip and is absolutely unused to the laptop keyboard.

_________________
ImageImage
Leib-Guard Cuirassiers Regiment's
General-Fieldmareshal Count Anton Kosyanenko
Commanding Astrakhan grenadiers regiment
2nd Grenadiers Division, Russian Contingent


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 2:21 am 
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Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2005 4:46 pm
Posts: 448
Location: Malta
Colin,

Anton has given a comprehensive answer but I just would like to share my experience of a few H&R scenarios I have been through.

1. Units effectively have their original morale. The only difference is default fatigue of 450 (which offsets morale B of regular units) so that the French infantry that storms Bagration fletches at Borodino is no longer combat effective after fletches are taken. This was the case historically. Units get to their limits faster and hardly can be effective after sustaining 30-50% losses. This also promotes historical behavior of rotating units rather than fighting to the death all the time.

2. How does a unit storm a position now? You still melee things –you just don’t do it every time you see an enemy. If you look at Ulm scenario – there is a village called Offenhausen in the depth of the Austrian position. In my game the French stormed the village with bayonet.

Austrians grenadiers were deployed there in lines with some artillery. Firstly the French skirmishes approached and opened fire on the village and French artillery was set up 4-5 hexes away pouring cannonballs into the village. Then, the French approached in order de mix, with one battalion deployed in line and the other two in columns. The columns charged but with no success. The next turn, the skirmishes, the battalion in line and artillery kept firing while another two battalions in column charged already disordered grenadiers and now the position was taken! Yes it took 40 minutes (with skirmishes fire and artillery preparation) but this is classical!

Phufl village (hex 62-57 on the same Ulm map) was taken in a similar manner. French grenadiers, supported by artillery, stormed the village after being repelled three times but their reward was the battery which they took inside once the village was taken!

Melee is still a very effective tool since it disorders the defender - but this is not the only effective tool available. Melee is especially common for larger battles like Borodino – for example the French would not hesitate to risk losing a melee when attacking Russian heavy battery at fletches – even if melee is not successful it disorders the defender and makes it vulnerable to the cavalry or the next wave of infantry. The Russians have to take their chances in a next turn or to give up a position.

I am at turn 12 of Borodino scenario and the French mostly move around in columns. The main attack on fletches is about to start with about 300 guns pouring fire into my position. I will make a small AAR on this once we finish.

3. Infantry stacking limitation – the answer is as per Anton. Artillery is up 14 guns per hex or 100meters (rarely happened in reality unless in closed positions and rarely happens in game).

I would really love you to try a small scenario just to get the feel of it.
Would recommend - H&R 1.03 1809 Abensberg from Eckmuhl. Not too time consuming, interesting tactical situation, a bit challenging for the Austrian player but a gives a good H&R introduction to the Bavarian player who has the initiative, and a balanced force of various arms.

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General-Leytenant Alexey Tartyshev
Leib-Guard Preobrazhensky Regiment (Grenadier Drum)
1st Brigade
Guard Infantry Division
5th Guard Corps


(I don't play with with ZOC kills and Rout limiting ON)


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 6:32 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 4:11 pm
Posts: 1765
Location: New Zealand
Alexey and Anton thanks for your thoughtful responses I will read them through. In the end I guess you are looking for an overall more historical effect. I agree with that idea for sure.

regards
Colin

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Prince d'Austerlitz et Comte d'Argentan
Ordre national de la Légion d'honneur

"What is history but a fable agreed upon"


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