Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)

Cossacks of the Napoleonic Wars

http://napoleonistyka.atspace.com/cossacks.htm

For example

Polish 15 Infantry Regiment of the Duchy of Warsaw, who fought at Medina ... attacked in tight columns the Cossacks! Do not fight in the squares! The commander of the regiment, Colonel Rybiński believed unworthy quadrangle fight with the enemy! Disparagement of honor!

The fight with the enemy as the Cossacks

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Général de Brigade Cezary Pluskwa,
17ème Régiment de Dragons,
1ère Brigade,
4ème Division de Dragons,
3ème Corps d'Armée,
La Grande Armée.

We feel great!

Do not forget about the side effects of other settings. Cossacks belong to cavalry, hence there may be no more than two units per hex at the same time. Each of the units is initially set to be 85-90 men strong, i.e. no more than 170-180 men per hex. As opposed to the stacking of heavies (300), dragoons (260-270), lights (230-240) and other militias (200). Cossacks have quality E with fanaticism bonus +2. Hence they have effective probability of rout like D quality units from stocked scenarios (D=E+2(fanaticism)-1(fatigue)). Since they are Es they have -10% bonus for melee. The parameters set was selected in such a way that single charging squadron sometimes can and sometimes can not defeat single batallion not in square. Two cossacks sotnyas are approximately just as strong as one heavy squadron. Meleeing two tightly packed batallions in column with leader will, most probably, lead to a defeat of cavalry with huge loss of life.

Cezary,

now to your example. The action at Medyn took place on a lowland that was transversed by a road. the road was a bith higher then the surrounding fields, creating a kind of damb with very steep sides. HPS/JTS equivalent would be road hex elevated one point with "embank" on both sides of the road. In such a situation a charge against tightly packed column with leader across an embank will not be successful. Almost for sure it won't. That's why both historically and in a imagined game Col. Rybinsky would be able to RETREAT in such a formation towards a forest where cossacks would not be able to pursuit him. But with such a formation no place is lef in a hex for anything else. So both historically and in an imagined scenario the Polish detachment would have to abandon all the 5 guns, all the baggage train and most of the cavalrymen.

It's only one example. When we were working on the rules set we examined in detail quite a few of them. This analysis led to a conclusion that cossacks must be a "normal cavalry" type. If you are interested I would bring here some of the examples.

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The settings are fine Anton, what I was really interested in was did Cossacks charge often enough historically that they should ANY charge factor? I believe they did or threatened to enough, that they should have the ability.

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Field Marshal Sir Edward Blackburn, 1st Duke of Aberdeen K.G.
85th (Buck's Light Volunteers) Regiment of Foot
16th British Brigade
7th Division
III (Peninsular) Corps
2nd Battalion, Coldstream Regiment of Foot Guards

There were several examples from 1799 campaign in Italy when cossacks did successfully charge nonsquared infantry; Borodino, where approach of Uvarov's and Platov's cavalry made Eugene form squares and seek protection in them$ numerous cases from late 1812 campaign when infantry did not dare show from villages or when only guards in tightly packed columns could safely move in presence of cossacks$ several cases in 1813 when cossacks made infantry detachments form squares and/or seek safety in towns/villages or even to form an improvised fortress from wagoons and carts (BTW this fortress, if memory helps, was "garrisoned" by a detacment stronges than the cossacks present plus there was a even stronger force comming for rescue. But nevertheless it was taken by brute force!). About a dozen epizodes altogether.

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Do not forget that Cossack is adventurer, brawler, bandit, robber, gadabout, outcast...not mannered cuirassier or gallant hussar!

http://youtu.be/9P6VflO87aI?t=3m31s Cossacks and robbery
http://youtu.be/JqLwfRUXHv4?t=2m12s Ambush, charge and combat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRrv8R1I ... ure=relmfu Beginning of the movie

This is Polish movie "Szwadron" (Squadron, Eskadron, Эскадрон) from 1992 about the the January Uprising in 1863...exactly Russian Dragoons, Cossacks, love, war...

seven parts, Polish and Russian speech, no subtitles.
Good film, enjoy Anton

So maybe you should take the evolution of the Cossacks, Kazakov, Kozaków ... others were in 1805 at Austerlitz and the other in 1814 near Paris. Others were on an expedition in Italy in 1799, and otherwise defend Mother Russia in 1812.

This relates in general to all ... learn from one another in martial arts or just life ... stronger, wiser won!

The French Revolution flowed slowly into all the world ... from west to east, and changed it!

Then there were the successive revolutions ...

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Général de Brigade Cezary Pluskwa,
17ème Régiment de Dragons,
1ère Brigade,
4ème Division de Dragons,
3ème Corps d'Armée,
La Grande Armée.

Tout cela est bien et bon,

but are you sure that a 1992 film about 1863 is a good source of info on tactics applied by cossacks in 1810s? A tiebreaker in a question of whether or not to give them a charge ability.

If you would like to have a discussion in terms of real examples of microhistory, you are welcome. Then begin with a single example when cossacks did threaten with a charge or did conduct a charge and were successfully repelled by infantry not:
- in square;
- in woods;
- in chateaux or any any other court surrounded by high walls;
- in skirmrish order occupuying buildings;
- behind an embank, stream, etc.
In all these situations any other cavalry would not be able to charge effectively, just like cossacks. Example with 15th Line at Medyn does not fit because it is covered by the last one. As I already said in that situation infantry was safe even not forming a square.

Of course if you ar not you can say whatever you choose. Simply do not forget that the worse you treat the enemy, the more disgraceful is your own decisive defeat.

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I do agree that some Cossacks regiments should be able to charge, I don't really agree that all of them should be able to charge.

I was reading that wonderful website article:
http://www.napolun.com/mirror/napoleoni ... ssacks.htm
Especially this part about the weapons used:


If they can be used in regular formation


Their tactic

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Général David Guegan

3ème Régiment de Grenadiers - Bataillon d'élite du 3ème Légère
2ème Brigade
Grenadiers de la Réserve
Réserve
La Grande Armée
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"From the sublime to the ridiculous is but a step."
Napoléon Bonaparte

Military justice is to justice what military music is to music.
Groucho Marx

le Polonais passe par tout

it was, according to the stories, to answer 18-year-old Adam Chłapowski Dezydery (later General and the farmer) in 1806, Napoleon's words of praise for the horse to jump in the presence of the emperor very wide ditch.

Battle of Ostroleka in 1831, The November Uprising.

Ignatius Skarbek-Kruszewski, Diaries 1830-1831 year late General Ignatius Skarbek-Kruszewski (Habdank coat), a former commander of the 5th regiment of Polish Lancers, the emigration of light cavalry division commander in the Belgian army, issued by the daughter of Caroline of Kruszewski Grabinska ... in Krakow 1890, ed. the second by the grandson of Casimir Kruszewski, Warsaw 1930, p 126:

Cease fire began, and the same night on both sides of poorly maintained it was already. When evening came, General Skrzynecki turned to his staff and said: "Here we will spend the night and tomorrow the same position to defend." Ordered to write an order to General Gielgud to "coute que coute" arrived with his division by the right bank of the Novgorod Narew. This command immediately send out an officer to Lomza. (It seems to me that Rozwadowski). Then he told me to go around the infantry regiments, to see if they still have loads. I found our battalions very reduced cargoes were little, but they can be issued with an artillery park that night could bring. Touring infantry regiments, when I passed our right wing and approached the chaussee the Narew, seeing several people almost naked on horseback - pulls up to him and get to know the wonder that is the Cossacks, who crossed the river with swimming prey, or to reconnoitre. I turned the horse and I went to pass him commander in chief of my mission report.

Anton,

Cossack mentality has not changed! In 1863 or sonner or leter. Well, maybe a little!

Kozak simply dressed in the uniform of cavalry force will be a good rider? Wait a minute. He's a good horseman!! But is so trained as French cuirassier or Polish lancer with a charge in the group? Not really. That's why I wrote about the evolution of them through the years.

Maybe let's focus on the special abilities of the Cossacks ... like crossing over rivers, streams, creeks ... a greater range of activities in the form of 22 or 23 points instead of 21 points of movement of traffic ... lack of effect of being without supplies ... because raids, reconnaissance, attacks on convoys, attacks on couriers, escorts prisoners, sowing panic and misinformation was their main role ... the French have a lot of troops left in 1813 to protect their backs against the guerrillas and ... Cossacks!? ... because along the Beaver River (Rzeka Bóbr - Bober Fluss) between Bolesławiec ( Buntzlau) and Jelenia Góra (Hirschberg) has been exhibited at the half-mile posts 25-30 troops to protect the lines of communication ... the action was supposed to be ready battalion of infantry with one gun ... built "blokhauz". Cossacks is a universally soldiers, capable of anything!

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Général de Brigade Cezary Pluskwa,
17ème Régiment de Dragons,
1ère Brigade,
4ème Division de Dragons,
3ème Corps d'Armée,
La Grande Armée.

As soon as the Russians wanting to enter the area of Silesia and did not give the possibility of rest, or supply French troops sent forward a strong vanguard formations. Among other things branch of Lt.-Col. Prendel. Was composed of 500 the Tartars and soldiers from under the Urals. Surely 200 dragoons. I do not know how many Cossacks. Feb. 20 at 7 am Prendel entered the Ścinawa ( Steinau an der Oder ) of 10 Cossacks and shouted to people in German: The Russians are coming as friends.

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Général de Brigade Cezary Pluskwa,
17ème Régiment de Dragons,
1ère Brigade,
4ème Division de Dragons,
3ème Corps d'Armée,
La Grande Armée.

Gentlemen Officers,

Cossacks were used also as a rearguard.

Thanks Pastor Charles Sigismund Steige we can trace the events of the spring and summer of 1813, which he witnessed, and which thoroughly described in the form of a calendar published for the first time in 1844 in the pages of Schlesischen Provinzblattern titled "Geschichte der Draugsale 1813", which is shown below .

On May 22, 1813 from the west could hear the roar of gunfire.
May 23 dragged through the village ( Thomaswalde - near Buntzlau - Tomaszów Bolesławiecki - near Bolesławiec )several vehicles belonging to the Prussians, and stretching the quarters to Lwówek ( Lowenberg )
May 24 dragged through the village the next convoy, this time with luggage Russian soldiers and Cossacks, infantry, wounded in the Prussian army, as well as many other people pulling out of the military announcing the coming of the enemy quickly.
On 25 May at 16.30 in the village appeared first French troops, which were preceded by scattered Cossacks and shooters.

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Général de Brigade Cezary Pluskwa,
17ème Régiment de Dragons,
1ère Brigade,
4ème Division de Dragons,
3ème Corps d'Armée,
La Grande Armée.

David and Cesary,

Sorry for the delay in answering your posts.

Real life+Problems with Internet+need to find good examples+natural lazyness=delay.

First of all let's specify what are we talking about. And here one needs to understand the idea of H&R oob. The basic organisation unit for cavalry and infantry is regiment. It consists of regimental commander and several units. These units are called EFFECTIVE batallions and squadrons as opposed to historical batallions in squadrons. Why the difference? Because due to the structure of game engine the size of the unit plays a very significant role and is not correctly taken into account. For example batallions 1200 men strong may be deployed in one hex which is nonsense. Plus there are several more aspects dealing primarily with morale.

So each of the regiments consists of a certain number of Effective units. their strength depends on the unit type. 400-450 for all the infantry, 150 - heavy cavalry, 130 - dragoons, 110-120 light cavalry, 100 - landwerh and cavalerie de marche, 85-90 cossacks. With a strict limitation on number of men AND UNITS within a hex it very much limits battle capabilities of the units. And very much diffirentiates the cavalry by types. So that Heavies are much more effective in charging enemy infantry while lights are more effective in screening etc.

Along with the morale, i.e. a measure how likely the unit is to get routed if hit hard, important role plays units ability to rally and undisorder. This is governed by regimental (and higher level) leaders leadership and command skills. For usual unit regimental commanders will not give a bonus to rally. And undisordering probability for an undetached unit will be about 30-60%. Depending on how good was the regiment, is it detached or not etc.

In this setting cossacks have several special characteristics:
1. They rout easily - they have effective quality rating of D, opposed to average C for all the other units.
2. They rally easily - regimental commanders have leadership B. Something no other leaders have. Normally, being stacked with leader, they will rally the next turn.
3. They undisorder easily - regimental commanders have Command B, something no one else has. Normally, being stacked with leader, they will undisorder the next turn.
4. As a result of 2 and 3 they are able to act independently, cross streams, woods etc. fearing not of getting disordered. Those who played big games know that is your cavalry patrol becomes disordered it's lost. This is not true with cossacks now.
5. Due to the small size of the units they can be successful only against weak enemy - fatigued, with high loses, single units that may be struck into flank etc.
6. If weather allows they are able to cross rivers (have Has boats status).

All this is already taken into account and can be verified with numerous examples of microhistory. The question is should they be given cossacks status or not. To remind you, it means that charge factor is not applied to them, unless they attack routed infantry. To understand that we need to look at the actions fought. Were there examples of successful charges of cossacks vs infantry? Were there cases when infantry threated with cossacks charge formed squares? If yes, we should not mark them with such a status. If no, we should.

The point of fact is that there are such cases. The facts soon to follow. Stay tuned!

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