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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:24 am 
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Al Kling wrote:
I think you meant that you were disagreed with and not attacked, we only attack when we are playing games. And I believe it is everyone's right to disagree and have different opinions! And like you stated earlier I have defended the original structure of the club founders. And we change anything we do not need to throw it all out based on one incident.

So please do not bite your tongue to hard.

Battle On....[/color]


Attacked was a little strong, I agree, I'm sorry, but there has been a series of points where I feel I've been targted since then. I hope I am wrong, that's all..... :)

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:29 am 
You know,Scott, you would be so much better off if you just stuck to actual facts and quit assuming. I am not taking this personally, any more than you intend it to be. My post in the Cabinet Forum tonight was a simple request for a response to a post I had made three days ago. My Cabinet post tonight actually consisted of four words. They were:

"Comments, John?
Anyone else?"

Grossly laconic for me, I admit.

I you really wanted to read the Cabinet posts so badly, and participate in the Cabinet discussions, then you should not have voluntarily resigned your position as the Club's Public Relations Officer. I hear you and your officers complaining about not having "a voice" on the Cabinet. They decidedly had a voice, Scott. As direct a voice as they could ever have had. They had you. You simply quit. And prior to the time that you actually did leave the Cabinet, I went through several rounds of you telling me you were going to leave and then deciding to remain.

I never attacked your suggestions of the structure that you would like to see for the NWC. I felt you were entitled to your opinion, and I firmly believe that it is the member's right to decide the matter. I cannot say that I was favorably impressed by your typing "GET RID OF THE CABINET" in capital text though. I support the rights of the members, and such an act would eliminate the only leader of this club that is elected by the membership. That certainly could be construed as a personal attack against both me, and the rights of the membership, to choose. I thought it was extremely disrespectful of you to make that statement in your chosen manner because, quite frankly, I have a great deal of respect for, and confidence in, the combined abilities of the five men that currently comprise the NWC Cabinet to lead this club.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:38 am 
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Quote:
Attacked was a little strong, I agree, I'm sorry, but there has been a series of points where I feel I've been targted since then. I hope I am wrong, that's all..... :) Scott Ludwig


We all have posted and been disagreed with Scott and if we post we expect to be disagreed with.... I will agree that some members have been more than disagreed with and in some cases even slandered. But I do not believe this is the case with you. Disagreement with the changes you have proposed is the issue.

But we digress, lets see what happens with the cabinet before we pass judgement, and you may not be biting the tongue hard enough.

Battle On ...


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:58 am 
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MCJones1810 wrote:
You know,Scott, you would be so much better off if you just stuck to actual facts and quit assuming. I am not taking this personally, any more than you intend it to be. My post in the Cabinet Forum tonight was a simple request for a response to a post I had made three days ago. My Cabinet post tonight actually consisted of four words. They were:

"Comments, John?
Anyone else?"

Grossly laconic for me, I admit..


Then we bothed assumed tonight, my fault, I am sorry. :)

MCJones1810 wrote:
I you really wanted to read the Cabinet posts so badly, and participate in the Cabinet discussions, then you should not have voluntarily resigned your position as the Club's Public Relations Officer. I hear you and your officers complaining about not having "a voice" on the Cabinet. They decidedly had a voice, Scott. As direct a voice as they could ever have had. They had you. You simply quit. And prior to the time that you actually did leave the Cabinet, I went through several rounds of you telling me you were going to leave and then deciding to remain.


I quit because of real life, but also because I was tired of the hostility on it, that appears to continued after I left, otherwise I would of stayed on.


MCJones1810 wrote:
I never attacked your suggestions of the structure that you would like to see for the NWC. I felt you were entitled to your opinion, and I firmly believe that it is the member's right to decide the matter. I cannot say that I was favorably impressed by your typing "GET RID OF THE CABINET" in capital text though. I support the rights of the members, and such an act would eliminate the only leader of this club that is elected by the membership. That certainly could be construed as a personal attack against both me, and the rights of the membership, to choose. I thought it was extremely disrespectful of you to make that statement in your chosen manner because, quite frankly, I have a great deal of respect for, and confidence in, the combined abilities of the five men that currently comprise the NWC Cabinet to lead this club.


Be careful what you call disrespectful.....I wasn't trying to be disrespectful when I made that comment and I clarified what I meant by it in my proposed structure post. I simply offered an alternative concept based on what I have learned from my years in these Clubs, the idea was shot down so I gave up on it. I am not in a quest to get rid of the Cabinet anymore. I simply wish to keep the concept simple and was giving caution to overreaching and making things complicated.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:11 am 
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May I suggest we move on and let this discussion end. We are beginning to sound like a bunch of crabby old men. I was going to say crabby old ladies but did not want to appear sexist and start a whole new string.

Back to seeing how things progress with the cabinet, having fun and tongue biting!

Battle On.....


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:41 am 
SLudwig wrote:
I quit because of real life, but also because I was tired of the hostility on it, that appears to continued after I left, otherwise I would of stayed on.


The main dissention at the time you left the Cabinet was between Chuck Jensen and you. That was something that had been going on long before I was ever elected to the Cabinet. The very first thing I did when I entered the Cabinet was to read all of the previous posts to gain an understanding of its history as well as its past and current members. I asked a simple question once for clarification of how I should score a Maneuver game in our DOR System, and then watched Chuck and you go at each other for two months. I even went so far as to pair the two of you together with the request that you talk about your differences and each post a position paper for the membership on your seemingly irreconcilable views so that the membership could vote to decide the issue. The two of you never could work that out either to the point of even posting your positions. I finally gave up ever trying to get an answer. Chuck and you fought a lot. There were many other disagreements as well. The picture of bliss and harmony that you are trying to imply existed before I entered the Cabinet is simply false. If I remember correctly, Yann and you crossed swords several times in the Cabinet Chambers as well.

The current Cabinet is certainly not a "hostile" place at all.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 3:20 am 
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Al Kling wrote:
May I suggest we move on and let this discussion end. We are beginning to sound like a bunch of crabby old men. I was going to say crabby old ladies but did not want to appear sexist and start a whole new string.

Back to seeing how things progress with the cabinet, having fun and tongue biting!

Battle On.....


Indeed Al.....I shall follow your wish, maybe I was too harsh.....

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:23 am 
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Mrsss

Reading very carefully the Cabinet minutes, I have the impression that the Cabinet acts now like a super HQ under the armies (or wants to become). But it's just an impression and I am sure that President Jones (or a Cabinet Member) will clear the things soon about that. For me, the armies must keep their independance. For example, a player who chooses to resign have to inform his CIC and his Cos not the President or the Cabinet. This is not a detail as the one who controls the resignation, have the power to cut the access to the forum. So on, if the President have this power, he would control in fact the armies.

I realized by the comments here that the Secretary and the President are in agreement in all these matters. So we have at least two votes for a Cabinet's increase of responsabilities.

Just my thoughts

Best regards

General Lamezec

Ps : As I am a French, english is not my mother tongue. So on, my english is not perfect and there are, in this message, no personal attacks, just ideas and concerns.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:41 am 
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MCJones1810 wrote:
If I remember correctly, Yann and you crossed swords several times in the Cabinet Chambers as well.

The current Cabinet is certainly not a "hostile" place at all.


I forgot this one. Yes that's right. But in fact we didn't become ennemy because I had a lot of respect for Scott and Scott respects me. I think this is the key. To improve we must exhange our ideas to take the best compromise. So, You will have always my ideas in this forum even I am now a simple officer. NWc is my club (not only mine of course) and the French Army my home.

Best regards

General Lamezec


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 3:03 pm 
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Even though I told Al I would follow his wishes, I do have something further to say.

I want everyone to know that my issue is not with Mark Jones the man or any member of the Club. Mark is an accomplished, successful, driven man in his personal life and he brings great energy to the Club. He has done many fine things. :) I still respect him the way I still respect Yann & Chuck, even though we had our arguments, we still at the end of the day got along.

What I quoted from the Cabinet minutes about Cabinet members getting more involved in how recruits are handled is from an incident where an Austrian recruit did not hear from his trainer for 11 days, so he sent a notice that he was quitting the Club. I followed up to see what the issue was and try to convince him to stay and found a new trainer for him. He said no thanks. In the meantime Mark started talking with him, as he was included in the email thread to try to convince him to join the AAA and stay in the Club, an email, even though he was my recruit, I was never copied on. It turns out and the recruit was included in this email that his trainer and the recruits email service were not talking to each other and in fact the trainer had followed up with him twice in those 11 days to see what was going on despite an incredibly busy work schedule and lack of internet access on the weekends. I was accused of not doing my job as army commander and following up with the recruit, even though I assumed everything was fine. I had company in town most of those 11 days and to be honest, I check in with my trainers after a few days and I did with this trainer and I was concerned a few days prior that something was wrong with him, as he is usually a dependable and prompt officer. The fact is, I trust my men to do their jobs. I don’t need to be all over them and telling them how to do their work or following up all the time with everyone.

Why does this concern me? Well grab a cigar, let us sit by the fire and I’ll take you back in time. Not everyone will remember, but the old iNWC that I had a hand in, when it was still around, had a lot of volunteers to run things for quite a number of years. But slowly, little by little attrition settled in. At the same time I had a lot of ideas to do things for the Club and started having a lot of tasks going on. My personal life took and dive and after two solid years and starts and fits with updates and other things, I called it quits and closed down the Club. One of the things I realized was that we had a lot of members, but because I was doing so much, a lot of them just sat back and did their gaming and never volunteered to help, not their fault, I simply never asked. The volunteers we did have, I still worked with very closely and would follow up with them, be involved et al. The thing I learned and have been trying to apply to all my dealings in these Clubs now is you can’t be everywhere and be everything to everyone. If you are so involved you set the expectations too high for the next guy who comes along. If you try to organize and run it all, even with a small group of people and not trust your other volunteers to do their work, you will burn out and the whole system will collapse around you. Trust me, I know, that type of Club will fail. The Cabinet is not meant to be involved in every aspect of the armies and nor should they even consider such ideas, you will simply make the system co-dependent and it will fail.

When I say simple rules, makes a simple Club, I mean it. That’s 10+ years of experience doing this saying that, not just some tag line…..

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Chief of Staff (CoS) of the Allied Coalition
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 4:18 pm 
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What ever is supposed to do, it should be as unobtrusive as possible. It should be invisible.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:36 pm 
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I really do not see any intent of President Jones to turn the Cabinet into a Super Headquarters for the armies of the NWC. I honestly believe everyone is talking (well writing) from different pages and all want the same thing. So lets see what happens and I can tell you I will not support massive changes to how the club operates. I am sure all the cabinet members are thinking along the same lines. So lets see what happens and stay positive with our focus on having fun.

Battle On...


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