Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)

· When the target unit is a Skirmisher unit and the total stacking in the hex does not exceed 1/8 maximum stacking, then the fire value is 25% of normal.

Normal 'maximum stacking' is 2000, so if more than 250 "engineer-skirmishers" are in a hex working on the same bridge they would lose the target-fire modifier for being skirmishers.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Kosyanenko</i>
<br />The main concern was that several engineers coys stacked together and working on the bridge suffer badly from artillery. But let's think of it in another fashion. Several hundred men working on a tiny object. Tiny compared to the hex size. If the hexside is 100 meters than it's square is 150 000 square meters. Average river that is crossed in the games is 50-100 meters wide. Let the bridge be 2, even 3 meters wide and you'll have the total square of 100-300 square meters. If there are several hundred men working it gives several men per square meter. If one recalls that average density in line formation is about 4 men per square meter it will bring us to conclusion that more historical is the way we have things now.

Moreover, I can't recall a single when the bridge was completely built under fire with no bridgehead on the other side. Both at Beresina and Aspern-Essling French had huge bridgeheads and the bridgebuilders were subject only to long range shelling. Look at this article:
http://www.napoleon-series.org/military ... hocin.html
For me it describes very well what will happen to those who try to repair a bridge guarded with determination even by a small force.

<center></center>
<center><b>Eyo Imperatorskogo Velichestva Leib-Kirassirskogo polku
General-Mayor Anton Valeryevich Kosyanenko
Commander of the Second Army of the West </b></center>

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Robert Roda

L'Armee du Rhin
V Corps
16eme Division
2eme Brigade
15ème Régiment du Ligne

"La Garde meurt, elle ne se rend pas!"

Excellent point Robert. Very good note.

What some of you guys can do is split up your pioneers into several stacks. If you control both sides of a bridge often you can have 2-3 stacks of pioneers repairing the structure.

Lieutenant Colonel Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]

Good point if you are not at Wagram and doing the campaign game! I argree that that is the way not to get beat up but my engin let my 200 men batt get the max hits ?

Col de Art 6/3 II Corps AN Marbot CS

I've had a long running dislike of the quality status of engineers. As an old infantryman, I take offence at the quality ascribed to the engineers (A+ etc), which I take to be intended to reduce the chance of disorder from chance fire while repairing bridges etc. In a gaming snse I have taken advantage of this high value by using the engineers as a reserve, with the benefit of high quality and unconstrained by lines of command. The skirmisher option would, in my view be ideal. It would solve the "disorder from fire" problem without making the engineer units military heroes.

Lt Colonel Neville Worland
Chef d'Etat-Major
Ier Corps de Réserve de Cavalerie
Army du Nord

Neville - I am not sure why you give a low assessment of engineers and frankly your comparison based on your line infantry experience doesnt hold water. My brother served as a combat engineer in Vietnam, checked for mines every morning on roads out of his camp while you infantry types were still asleep. Alone AND without infantry support he bravely road on the front of a jeep with a mine detection device, exposed to any VC or NVA type that wanted to shoot him. In my mind he was very brave. I rate him HIGHER than you infantry types and feel that way about any combat engineer. Try operating a bulldozer in a combat zone sometime.

So frankly I could care less about your assessment of engineers in general and as no change is forthcoming anyway (not based on your comment but on the fact that John Tiller is already tied up with other work) I consider this topic as dead.

My assignment of the quality rating was not based on my brother's experience btw. It was based on sound thought on the topic and the fact that highly trained personnel usually have a higher morale than line infantry types with some exceptions of course.

Lieutenant Colonel Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]

Hi Bill
My grandfather was in the NZ army engineers who helped build the airbase at Guadacanal. They were in the thick of the action all the time and he and his friends were as tough as tacks and are certainly recognised in our history as an elite unit.

As regards the ratings my limited knowledge inclines me to say the Marines of the French guard are certainly A+. They also have lovely uniforms [:D][:D].


Colonel Colin Knox,
Baron de l'Empire
2e Regiment Gardes d'Honneur
La Jeune Garde
CO. 1er Brigade, III Division Cavalerie Legere, III Corps Armee du Nord
http://www.aspire.co.nz/colinknoxnwc.htm

Bill not to prolong this but your assessment is so very true. Without the gene most of these battles would be lost and is wroth a fight to get them in a position, were they are given the greatest moral and backing by any and all French Players. I have a problem when men who say that they on the same side fight among them selves I believe you need to put your years in the Military behind you! I served from 64 -72 so I can talk about the hot years Merci. (Navy Medic till 68 Engine room 72).

Col de Art 6/3 II Corps AN Marbot CS

I have the utmost respect for medics! All medics whether Navy or Army. Not being able to fire back at the enemy, hoping that the Red Cross will keep you from being fired at. The bravest of the brave IMHO.

Yes Colin - those French Marine uniforms are nice! I never painted French for Napoleonics but they were one of the more colorful armies of the period. I painted 25mm Russians (Scruby and Minifigs), Prussians, Bavarians, Westphalians and Poles(Minifigs for all non-Russian).

I did paint one stand of figures (25mm) of French infantry after I had acquired the painting technique known as "black washing." Absolutely revolutionized my painting. I really began to enjoy painting after that. I still would like to buy a pack of Minifigs (25mm) now and then and paint them up.

Its too bad that the price of lead went up as I liked 25mm castings for tabletop battles the best. Though you wouldnt be able to fight a large battle like Waterloo in a reasonable amount of space you still got a more colorful looking army than the 15mm armies, though I must admit that the 15s have come a long way from their early days.

In 15s I painted ACW (Little Round Top OB for both sides), French Protestant Ren. army, and had a complete 30YW Swedish army ready to go when I gave it all up because of eye tension and not enough time to do the work.

Overall I really enjoyed painting figures and hope to get back to it someday soon. Well as soon as I can get money flowing in again! [:p]

Lieutenant Colonel Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]

Hey Bill
Yes I have a large 25mm Napoleonic collection (lots of minifigs too) so if you are ever in NZ look me up!

Amongst my 45 odd btns I have a btn the French Marines of the guard which are well painted by a fantastic painter I bought them from.

Yes a corpman of medic are I agree the bravest men on the modern battlefield.

Regards



Colonel Colin Knox,
Baron de l'Empire
2e Regiment Gardes d'Honneur
La Jeune Garde
CO. 1er Brigade, III Division Cavalerie Legere, III Corps Armee du Nord
http://www.aspire.co.nz/colinknoxnwc.htm

Great Colin, someday I hope to get up to NZ. Have always wanted to see your country since I read Battle Cry by Leon Uris as a kid.

Are you Wellington? Or some points north or south?

Lieutenant Colonel Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]

Wonderful how folks like to personalise things. But Bill, your tale underlines my point; engineers are good at what they do and what they do is extremely dangerous. But they are not great at what they aren't trained to do - fight in regular formations. That is what the infantry does.

Lt Colonel Neville Worland
Chef d'Etat-Major
Ier Corps de Réserve de Cavalerie
Army du Nord

Neville - first, lets agree not to get mad at each other. I dont see you going in that direction. I would like to discuss this in a decent fashion.

I can only go based on your comments. Yes, I used a personal example but you personalized the topic yourself to begin with. I am not sure why you accused me of getting the ball rolling. Once you can see that we can move on to the next point which is from your response:

"which I take to be intended to reduce the chance of disorder from chance fire while repairing bridges etc."

No, that is not why I gave them a decent morale. The morale value also has to do with routing. There was no conscience decision on my part to give them a better morale than line units. And frankly I know some line units that have far worse morale than engineers. So what you think of as a line unit is relative. Again I point back to your personalizing the topic - relative to your own experience in the infantry you considered engineers to be lesser quality.

May I point out that it was an engineer officer that was at Rouke's Drift? So comparing officers, line to engineer, really doesnt hold water either. And there are certain engineer officers that are not as good as others.

In the end I just felt that engineers had high elan and would hold well under fire. I wasnt really thinking in terms of them being better than the line formations. Just giving them what I thought was the proper rating.

One thing I would like to see in the series which we wont get and that is a "fall back" result. For instance not all retreats are routs. They may not be orderly but they cerrtainly are not always men running for their lives. Often you can see this in a unit falling back steadily. Thus its a involuntary action but its certainly not a confused scramble either. Some of the RTS games model this well.

So I really wasnt looking for an effect although the result may seem the same. I was giving them the rating that I think they deserved.

I note that when the WW2 US engineers that worked on the Remagan bridge came under fire they basically pulled out. It was not due to courage but because the heavy barrages made work counterproductive. Mainly from concern of loss of life.

But they didnt rout from the scene. The decision was made to pull them out to avoid excess casualties ... because the guys basically would continue working REGARDLESS of loss of life. This cannot be said of all engineers but I feel that THOSE US Army engineers (as I wouldnt say that of all of the battalians in the WW2 US Army) and those of the French army were of the same elan.

Lieutenant Colonel Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]