Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)

Ref my post in the pointless little game.

Ahhh Jeka getting a bit politically correct arn't we?

If we only take from histroy what doesn't offend or give offence we re-write history and we become ignorant and hypocritical tyrants ourselves in the end.

I did not post it to offend, rather to state historical fact! If you think I am wrong give me some historical examples of Spanish Valour during the penninsular war?

Maj Micheal Ellwood
König Regiment
1 Bde, 22 Div
VII Saxon Corps
L' Armée du Rhin

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Mike Ellwood</i>
I did not post it to offend, rather to state historical fact! If you think I am wrong give me some historical examples of Spanish Valour during the penninsular war?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Mssr. Elwood,

You should first know that Jeka not only edited your initial response, but deleted in its entirety my initial reply to your ignorant post. I subsequently thanked him for doing so because, regardless of the provocation, "flames" invariably lead to the end of all discourse.

As to your inane question, the briefest and most direct answer I can give is the following: Napoleon obtained the surrender of Austria, Prussia and Russia during the Campaigns of 1805, 1806-07 and 1809 after campaigns measured in months not years. With the exception of Great Britain and Spain (the former, of course never had to contend with an invasion by La Grande Armee thanks to the Royal Navy), no European nation remained continuously at war with Napoleon's Empire for more than one year until after the 1812 debacle when the French Empire began to disintegrate. By contrast, the fighting in Spain essentially began with the Dos de Mayo uprising in Madrid (May 2, 1808) and continued without interruption until Napoleon's abdication in 1814, a span of nearly six years. In brief, my Spanish forebears never asked for quarter; the French were simply presented with <i>guerra a la muerte</i>[}:)].

If you want a fuller answer, then you should take note of the fact that the first defeat and complete capture of an Imperial Army occurred at the Battle of Bailen, July 19, 1808, following which the remainder of the French forces in Spain were forced to retreat North of the Ebro. To reconquer Spain, Napoleon was forced to assemble an army of 250,000 men, including the Imperial Guard Corps. For the remainder of the Peninsular Campaign, the French were forced to maintain in Spain a minimum of 250,000 men, although at times it rose as high as 350,000. Precise casulaties figures for the French in Spain are a matter of conjecture, but it is conservatively estimated that 300,000 Frenchmen DIED in the Peninsula, 2/3 of whom the direct result of fighting against the Spanish regular and irregular forces. The French suffered more casualties in the 2nd Siege of Zaragosa than in ANY of their defeats at the hands of Wellington. Need I go on ...?

Paco

<i>Maréchal M. Francisco Palomo
Prince d'Essling, Grande Duc d'Abrantes et
Comte de Marseille
Commandant - Division de Cavalerie de la Vieille Garde </i>
AdC - <i>Ieré Corps de Armee</i>

I second Paco's words.

The Spanish people gave Napoleon a body blow his empire did not recover from. Our vision has been skewed by historians who did not consult Spanish sources, and/or were too concerned with promoting thier own nation's efforts.

Colonel Al Amos
1erè Brigade Commandant
2ème Division de Dragons

Oh good grief. So much for trying to inject a little humor into the board on my end.

In any case, I do have to agree that the Spanish showed great Valor. Their army may not have been as efficient as some others, and never overcame certain command issues, but that doesn't negate the valor of that army or of the nation as a whole.

I recall reading a history at one point (don't recall what) where it said that in one campaigning year, the Spanish achieved their usual result of getting their army crushed. Suffice it to say that is the sort of ill informed opinion that gives weight to this problem.

Just consider Massena's famous comment that a "Small Army is defeated and a large army starves." Why did they starve? That's the ultimate answer to this little hubub.

FM Freiherr Gary McClellan
Generalissimus Imperial Austrian Army
Portner Grenadier Battallion
Allied Coalition C-in-C

Mike,
my english is not so good that I can debate here on equal terms.
You just read some books about this era and you'll find maly examples of Spanish great Valor.

<b>general-feldmarshal Eugene Gulyaev
RA Chief of Staff
Leib-Gvardii Semenovskij Polk
Club Secretary
</b>

I think you will find that the Spanish commanders were to blame more than the men.

They had a differing concept on how the war should be fought. The pro-British accounts also tend to paint them as imbeciles. Not all of the Spanish commanders were poor. The rank and file may not have been up to the standards of Napoleon's army but to say that they didnt fight with valour is pushing it a bit.

Bill Peters
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]

Gentlmen,

Thank you for rising to the occassion to defend the Spanish. Please understand I am not making any personal attacks or judgement on todays Spanish, of whom I have several good friends. My "agent provoquer" statment certainly touched off a few indignant and angry repsonses, one or two more measured.

I unreservadly apologise for the offence that some have taken.

"Ah, with modern education failing us, we stand in a world where people don't know history".

However much people dislike facing the realities of history it does not change that history. No response gave an actual example of Sanish Valour IN THAT PERIOD.

Valour/Valor = Bravery
Bravery = Bold, courageous, splendid, fine, defy, meet boldly.
To justify as valourous more than one definition of bravery is required for the standards of then and now.

The only part of these that could be justified is defy.

Yes the Spanish defied Napoleon's Invasion. Yes they inflicted "the Spanish ulser" on the French. It was the first real "guerra a la muerte" that a European military/nation had to contend with.

The English and Portuegese, with the contributions of the Spanish armies, irregular and guerilla warfare (conducted by the nation as a whole) succeeded in defeating the French. All nations and even Wellington himself were appalled at the nature of Spanish "guerra a la muerte" resistance. <font color="red">However the manner in which the Spanish conducted "guerra a la muerte" as a people and as an army, I stand by my statment, was not Valorous. </font id="red">

Even a limited reading of the history presents the facts, here are but two examples:
"Of the over 18,000 French troops obliged to to lay down their arms at the surrender at Baylen many were then immediately massacred."

One contemporary account states "the most fortunate of our sick, our laggards, our orderly officers, surprised and siezed were sluaghtered on the spot; others were thrown into cauldrons of boiling water, some even sawn between two planks or burnt at a slow rate. One general found still alive fastened by the neck to a tree with his limbs sawn off."

Let bygones be bygones and as civilized historians not be to hasty to take offence but to gather and anaylise the facts that always speak for themselves. Then learn from them.

Micheal Ellwood

"an actual example of Sanish Valour IN THAT PERIOD."

Saragosa! (Sorry for bad spelling.) City was under siege twice.

I think you need to read some more books on the subject, and "Then learn from them."

Colonel Al Amos
1erè Brigade Commandant
2ème Division de Dragons

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Mike Ellwood</i>

The English and Portuegese, with the contributions of the Spanish armies, irregular and guerilla warfare (conducted by the nation as a whole) succeeded in defeating the French. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Mssr. Ellwood,

You have put the cart before the horse. To quote from but one recent work on the Peninsular War: "Thus, the Spanish 'nation in arms' presented the French with a host of virtually insuperable, political and military problems. They may have lacked the polished professionalism of the British Light Division but, in the long run, they probably inflicted considerably more damage on the French forces than all of Wellington's pitched battles combined. The sieges of Gerona alone cost the Imperial armies over 20,000 casualties and, exclusively from sickness and guerilla raids, the French forces in the Peninsula lost approximately 100 men per day for over four years: a total of some 164,000 casualties. It is, therefore, easy to see how the war in Spain bled the French army white and, whilst the Anglo-Portuguese forces delivered the hammer blows, it was the civilian populations, particularly the Spanish, that bore the brunt of the suffering." Gates, David, <u>The Spanish Ulcer</u>, p. 36 (W.W.Norton 1986)

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> All nations and even Wellington himself were appalled at the nature of Spanish "guerra a la muerte" resistance. <font color="red">However the manner in which the Spanish conducted "guerra a la muerte" as a people and as an army, I stand by my statment, was not Valorous. </font id="red"> <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Napoleon seized control of Spain by blatantly betraying an allied nation and then enforced that control with a barbarity that would have made Hitler's Gestapo blanch. En route to their eventual demise at Bailen, Dupont's troops first sacked Cordova after rejecting the town's capitulation. "What followed was a disgrace and such scenes were to be repeated many times in the coming years. The French looted Cordova with little regard for life or property: the town was sacked, women were raped and dozens of civilians were killed." Gates, <i>supra</i>, p. 51. None of the various sources at my disposal speak of a "massacre" of French soldiers after Bailen, but I will shed no tears if a few met their just rewards for the sack of Cordova.

Finally, untold thousands of Spaniards took up arms against the French forces in both the regular and irregular forces. With litle training, equipment or supporting arms such as cavalry and artillery, they nonetheless took the field against the most powerful army of that era. As could be expected, they lost most of the field battles, but again and again they rallied and reformed their forces going back into the fray until victory was achieved. If that's not valor, then I don't know what is.

Paco

<i>Maréchal</i> M. Francisco Palomo
<i>Prince d'Essling, Grande Duc d'Abrantes et
Comte de Marseille
Commandant - Division de Cavalerie de la Vieille Garde </i>

Thread locked by the Cabinet

<center>
[img]</center>
<center>Monsieur le Marechal Baron John Corbin
Duc de Paive
Commanding the Division de Cavalerie de la Jeune Garde
NWC President</center>