Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)

I open a separate thread where we can discuss several questions:
-what were actual historical marching rates during the late XVIII-early XIX century (intentionally do not use "French revolution and empire" term ).
-what army was in average faster.
-what are historical examples of the fastest foot marches.

First of all we have to decide what rates are we talking about. They may be
<b><font color="orange">"strategical"</font id="orange"></b> marches for example the one of la grand armee from the camp at Boulonge to the Bavaria or movement of Russian troops from western Ukraine to the same place at the same time. It is made off the contact with enemy and lasts for more than 10 days.
<b><font color="orange">"operational"</font id="orange"></b> marches for example the one of the Davout before Austerlitz, the one of Souvorov before the Battle of Trebbia, the one of Bagration in 1812 evading the French troops etc. It is made off the contact with the enemy, but such a contact can be made really soon and the aim of the march is either to catch up with the enemy or evade them.

At first I thought that there is no need to say that ON THE AVERAGE operational marches are faster than strategical. It is also clear that we can't compare a march along good roads and a march via bad roads in poor weather, a march early spring or late in the autumn (the least favourable) with the one during late spring and early autumn(the most favourable season). Roads quality, food supply and OPERATIONAL SITUATION should also be taken in consideration. The later means that on retreat (except special cases) there is no need to go faster than the enemy can. Then I recalled all the comments done so far and decided to add these notes.

So first of all the strategic marches. It is the strategic march Souvorov talked about to Bellegarde. And not only talked. He used this kind of march organisation extensively since he was regimental commander.

In 1768 his Souzdal muskateers regiment made 850 kms in 30 day in November (Moscow archive of General Staff). The route was from around St.Petersburg to Smolensk. It means it passes through a very marshy terrain. The average speed is 28.3 km/day. (link is here, an article in Russian http://adjudant.ru/suvorov/suvorov013.htm). There were only six men ill and one missing after the march.

An example at the army scale: in 1799 Russian army heading to Italy made 675 km (400 from St.Polten to Villach and 275 from Villach to Verona) within 30 days (departure on March 4 arrival April 3) with average of 22.5 km/day. But initial marche were made according to Austrian marching plan of 16 km/day and rest every third day which gives 30+ km/day during the last days under direct command of Suvorov. Again it was done early in spring. (Source Milyutin's The war of 1799. The most extensive source of ever written on this matter. Of course in Russian.)

One of the most spoken of marches of Napoleon was made since August 27 to September 17 1805 (earlyin autumn) from the coast of the Channel to the Rhine with average route more than 500 kms within 20 days. It gives an average of 25 km/day. (my estimates but the facts are very well known).

The last example is redeployment of siberian regiments in 1809-1810. Russian was not in war with France yet but was expecting such a war to happen sooner or later. So several regular regiments were moved from Siberia to the central Russia. They had to march from their deployment areas to Kazan from 1529 to 2720 kms. The time given was from 96 to 167 days which gives about 16 km/day. But the march was to be made since mid August till December. And it was to take place in Urals and Siberia. In terms of western europe it means it was made off the roads. The food should have been taken with the marching troops since there were only a few (in european terms) settlements along the path. There were no missing though (GM Skalon was awarded an order for this exploit). And to repeat it was made in peace time. (Source http://www.museum.ru/museum/1812/librar ... index.html it uses archives extensively. In Russian)

Hope you will forgive my stopping here for today. Descriptions of operational marches are to follow. So far I see no reason to say French troops were much faster than Russian. Bonaparte was almost as fast as Souvorov. Exactly what I first said.[^]

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<center><b>Eyo Imperatorskogo Velichestva Leib-Kirassirskogo polku
General-Adjutant Anton Valeryevich Kosyanenko
Commander of the Second Army of the West </b></center>

Gentlemen,

I was somewhat surprised seeing no reply after the first post and was very mush disencouraged to write anything else after several days of complete silence. It's a very time consuming work to find and arrange proper examples for such a topic. It requires to use and compare several sources and then check the results using the Google tracing the approximate paths. So only a few examples here as I do not want you to think this silence is because of my inability to prove the statement.

So only a few examples of Russian army rapid operational marches.

1. Battle of Rymnik, Sep. 22 1789.7 000 strong detachment of Souvorov made 100 kms in two days in rainy weather, joined 18 000 of Austriand under prince Coburg and destroyed 100 000 strong Turkish army taking four fortified camps by force. After the retreat Turkish army consisted only of 15 000. (Do not quote fundamental works in Russian. This info is on the Russian page in Wikipedia http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D1% ... 0%BA%D0%B5)

2. Action at Tidone, prelude to Victory at Trebbia. June 17 1799. Army under Souvorov made 80 kms from the river of Bormide to the river of Tidone in 36 hours and entered the fight right from the march forcing back the advance guard of MacDonald. (Yet again a link to Wikipedia though figures are the same in Milutins's fundamental work http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%91%D0% ... 0%B8_(1799))

3. Battle of Saltanovka. 23 July 1812. Bagration left Bobruisk fortress on 19 July. The light forces reached Dashkvka in two days and the 7th corps was there on 22. The distance is about 120 kms. 40 km/day for infantry and 60 for the light troops. (The days are given by Mikhailovski-Danilevski and Bogdanovich, distances and speeds are counted using Google).

4. Actually the whole retreat of Bagration's army from the border to Smolensk was made at a speed of approximately 40 km/day. But there was one record I can't help mentioning. Detachment of Dorokhov (1st and 18 Jager regiments, Izumski hussars, 2 Don cossacks regiments, light artillery company) was cut off and had to get away from enemy approaching from all the directions with extremely forced marches. According to memories of M.M. Petrov, batallion commander in 1st Jaegers at a time, the last day march they made was 60 kms long.

5. Before the battle of Maloyaroslavets Dokhturov's 6th corps made about 40 kms from the vicinity of Foninskoe (now town of Naro-Fominsk) to Maloyaroslavets.

6. The last one demonstrating average speed of cavalry. In 1813 Chernyshev, Benkendorf and Dornberg made 50 miles (75 kms) in a day and destroyed Moran's detachment killing 1000 and capturing 200 men. on May 29 Chernyshev made a 90 km long marche (it tok whole day and night) to capture 1200 strong detachment. Next after 60 km long march he attacked Arrigi in Leipzig together with Vorontsov. (History of cavalry by Denison)

Everyone interested may use the same method. You take several books on the subject and start looking through them carefully. You would be interested in two things: 1. Names of places , 2. Dates forces were in them. When you have enough info you trace the path in Google and compute it's length, then compute the speed. Very interesting but very time consuming work. From what I have already done (only part of it is listed here) conclusion "British and French armies were the fastes on the march" does not follow. Such a statement can't be proved by only giving two examples one for each army as it was done. Here I gave SEVERAL examples of comparable speed for Russian army that make such a proof invalid. The reason such a statements as quoted are used can be only ignorance and arrogance. Or both of them. Truth is the only way to defeat any and both of them.

And a last note. To those of you liking to think "in genaral" about the higher quality of French, British, Russian or whatever army, it's higher speed or better equipment. Try thinking "in particular" about particular men the army consisted of, particular units and formations. Study carefully the whole set of facts not only two examples. Such "general" statements will most probably turn out to be false.

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<center><b>Eyo Imperatorskogo Velichestva Leib-Kirassirskogo polku
General-Adjutant Anton Valeryevich Kosyanenko
Commander of the Second Army of the West </b></center>

These facts are interesting and I am sure the amount of effort to accumulate them is great...

One question I would like to ask...

Do these facts represent rare occurances at marching or were such feats common place in the Napoleonic Wars?



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[img]</center>
<center>Monsieur le Marechal Baron John Corbin
Commanding L'Armee du Rhin
Grande Duc de Piave et Comte de Beauvais
Commanding the Division de Cavalerie de la Moyenne Garde
NWC President</center>

Such events were rather common. In every campaign one may find events like these. And these feats were achieved by different armies. So, in my opinion, it was not specific to any special army. Did they happen or not depended more on the skills and strategical style of the commander rather than on troops abilities. Of course there were more agressive commanders in the French army than in the Austrian and Prussian where generals often used defensive strategy with slow movements. But in our case it's up to the player to decide his tactics. And there will probably be cautious and slow French as well as rapidly moving Prussians.

So in strategic level games commander should be given an ability to conduct such forced marches. Such an ability should be restricted by a set of rules in the game itself or a set of house rules that will prevent troops from always move at this speed which is of course unhistorical.

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<center><b>Eyo Imperatorskogo Velichestva Leib-Kirassirskogo polku
General-Adjutant Anton Valeryevich Kosyanenko
Commander of the Second Army of the West </b></center>

To Bill Peters personally.

Bill, you asked what sources can I name to support the thesis. I brought in quite a few of them. Not a single line from you for about a week. What for did you ask me about the sources?

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<center><b>Eyo Imperatorskogo Velichestva Leib-Kirassirskogo polku
General-Adjutant Anton Valeryevich Kosyanenko
Commander of the Second Army of the West </b></center>

Since I havent even responded to this thread I dont know what are you referring to.

I have been busy pure and simple.

Colonel Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

Your words

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> What references can you cite for us that would back up an average Russian march to exceed that of the British or French? I do know that they made some horrific marches such as in 1805 (Kutusov marching to the aid of Mack) but was this normal practice?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

from here

http://www.wargame.ch/board/nwc/topic.a ... C_ID=10303

posted on April 6

<center></center>
<center><b>Eyo Imperatorskogo Velichestva Leib-Kirassirskogo polku
General-Adjutant Anton Valeryevich Kosyanenko
Commander of the Second Army of the West </b></center>

And based on your references and what I know from history I have yet to see a change in my feelings and those of other readers.

For instance: in 1805 it took Kutusov something like a month to move 175 miles. Yes, it was winter and he was delayed waiting for the sixth column and all that. But the march rate in an operational campaign was awful. Contrast that with the French moving up from the Bologne camps. Left in September and were at Donauworth by the 7th of October.

Now look at the Russians in 1807. Great on the retreat perhaps but their march out of camps in the winter to attack Napoleon's open left flank was slow. Something like 12 miles a day at best. Again winter conditions.

Now how about in 1813? This is summer. On the approach to Dresden the best they did was something like 11 miles a day.

My point is not that they could not march faster but that during real campaigns they were either paired with a slower army (Austrians) or were just not as quick on the march as the French.

Yes, you cite some marches within Russia that are exceptional for the period. But they dont constitute the average daily march during a campaign.

Anyway, you took this all very defensive and are only defending the Russian army. I am sure that if you looked at Swedish records or those of the Spanish army you could fine one or two references where they marched like rabbits and could match anything the French ever did. But not on the average.

The Prussians too performed some great marches in 1813. And they ran pretty fast in 1806 too!

But operationally very few armies could sustain the same march pace as the French and still have any kind of fighting force still intact when they arrived at the battlefield.

And I may also add that on many occaisions the long marches had their effect on the French too. Napoleon supposedly saw 20 percent reduction in 1805 after his army reached the Inn River. Long marching is not without its effects.

But the rates we have in the game I think are pretty good. I dont think we need to adjust them. That was my main point anyway. You took off on a defensive effort and totally lost track of what was being discussed.

End of topic.

Colonel Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

1. It was not defense. If a general statement is made it is proved to be incorrect but giving a counter example. But prooving it correct is very hard and time consuming work. A statement "all the cats are grey" is refuted by merely showing a black cat. Or white. Or even dotted brownish grey. Statement "The French and British armies had the highest marching rates of the era, because they could conduct feats the others couldn't (examples given)" is incorrect by two reasons. First you mentioned - a single example does not prove it. But there is the second one. Other armies could do the same. I brought quite a few examples of Russian army marching. I gave only examples based on Russian language sources you didn't know about. I'm sure german speaking guys can find the same about Prussians and Austrians, spanish speaking about Spaniards etc. Why some of the info should be not taken ito consideration because it was not published in English?

2. One can't compare incomparable! When I brought several examples from a set of campaigns and compared them to examples of another set of campaigns it was quite Ok because we were talking about the highest possible rate of march. But comparison of the top rate of march for one side vs. real average rate of the march for another is nothing but strange. And it will give nothing but faulty results. For example in 1813 Allies were really slowly advancing toward Dresden. But what was the real speed of the French troops at the same time? It's easy to calculate, because the French were advancing toward Berlin right at the same time and at the same crawling speed. Have you used comparison correctly would you gain some really valuable info. In this particular case how much are the troops slowed down by heavy rains.

As for the statement itself it can't be proved by merely giving a couple of examples. A careful study is needed showing that it the same natural conditions and with the same tasks given to the troops French were significantly faster. Using your methodology "from what I have read" it does not follow.

3. You have nothing else to consider. I gave you only the raw facts. If they do not coincide with your vision - it's the problems of the vision, not the facts. A strange attitude when facts about some groups of people (armies this time) are taken as they are while the same facts about the others should be reconsidered and decided whether to take them into account. The reason is the a priori setting that one group is better then another. Double standarts at the very least.

I can't conduct such a study now - it will cause me to put aside everything else for quite some time. Without it we can argue forever. So the topic is really closed.

<center></center>
<center><b>Eyo Imperatorskogo Velichestva Leib-Kirassirskogo polku
General-Adjutant Anton Valeryevich Kosyanenko
Commander of the Second Army of the West </b></center>

Well in closing the march rates of Suvarov are nice but made when no enemy troops were nearby.

More or less my statement earlier. Its easy to make 22-30 km a day when noone is around. Another thing to march that much when the enemy is nearby.

Anyway, the point was made earlier. The game is correct and doesnt need to be changed. Jena allows for the longest marching if you use pikes and it can be shown that if you march further than 8 hours you can equal the long marches of the period.

Thanks for the data though. It was helpful.

Colonel Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

Guys you also forgot my detailed comments on the influence of Alcohol on marching rates as well.

I salute your scholarly efforts.



General de Brigade Knox
Baron de l'Empire



2e Regiment Gardes d'Honneur (the regaled pheasants)
La Jeune Garde



CO. 1er Brigade, III Division Cavalerie Legere, III Corps Armee du Nord
http://www.aspire.co.nz/colinknoxnwc.htm

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bill Peters</i>
<br />Well in closing the march rates of Suvarov are nice but made when no enemy troops were nearby.

More or less my statement earlier. Its easy to make 22-30 km a day when noone is around. Another thing to march that much when the enemy is nearby.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Oh, that's the reason! As if Davout had to overcome stiff resistance while marching to Austerlitz or he had to do that again in 1806 marching toward Auerstedt. Or Napoleon had to fight his way on the march from Boulogne camp to Danube? They didn't. All of the marches I mentioned as operational were either toward the enemy and were essentially concluded with a battle or were away from the enemy close on the heels of the troops. Come on! Why a reason to say "And still Napoleon was greater" is always needed?

<center></center>
<center><b>Eyo Imperatorskogo Velichestva Leib-Kirassirskogo polku
General-Adjutant Anton Valeryevich Kosyanenko
Commander of the Second Army of the West </b></center>

General-Adjutant Anton Valeryevich Kosyanenko

I salute your research effort and discovery of sources. However your last post infers that the Napoleonic era had little to do with the greatness that was Napoleon or his instrument, the French military machine.

How then did this not so great man with this average army defeat all of continental Europe and have them courting at his call?

I do remember the battles of Eylau and Borodino that seemed to me that the French bought the Russians to battle, why then as you infer, they could march as well if not better than the French, did they not continue the retreat into Russia relying on mother nature to do the lions share of the destruction? And yes I know the political, operational and tactical reasons for those battles but they are all pre-disposed to the position and threat of Napoleons forces and they got there by their marching ability.

I also believe the barefooted, frozen, starved rabble did in fact evade the Russian army and cossacks to cross the Berizina and was not wholly destroyed. To me that would indicate some proof of a better march rate.

At the end of it all it really was Napoleon's phenominal character combined with the staff and corps systems that really made the biggest impact and that seems to be hard to replicate in these games. The march rates were not hugely different and therefore it really needs the time delay of the fog of war, orders and intelligence sytems to get anyhting like an operational perspective/simulation. These are really just battles over a few days were those factors have already really had their impact.

Lets not get to wound up about a few miles during the Napoleon Era [;)]

Col Mike Ellwood
Konig Regt
1 Bde, 22 Div
VII Saxon Corps, ADR

Apparently it was not clear. I meant two points:

1. Not all of the most brilliant tactical, operational, strategical, organisational etc. decisions and actions should be attributed to Napoleon or his subordinates under his direct supervision. Such actions of troops from Austria, Bavaria, Britain, Prussia, Russia, Saxony, Spain, Sweden, Turkey, USA etc. (listed in alphabetical order) are worth knowing too. Everyone who tries to learn about these actions will broaden his mind.

2. Not all of Napoleons decisions were brilliant and excellent. Understanding the reasons of his actions and decisions given the info he had, and results it brought to in reality rather than pure stating their geniality and excellence will broaden your mind. As will study of other military, political, administrative, science and arts people actions from Austria, Bavaria etc. (see the list above).

That said I do not state his actions were never good or excellent. As I do not claim no feats were made under his command and by his order. But thinking all of his actions were great as well as thinking that all of the great actions came from him will make us forget too much. That's it.

To conclude, thank you Gentlemen for the discussion! I enjoyed brushing up all these facts. All my objections are aimed to eliminate double standarts and let us understand our history better.

<center></center>
<center><b>Eyo Imperatorskogo Velichestva Leib-Kirassirskogo polku
General-Adjutant Anton Valeryevich Kosyanenko
Commander of the Second Army of the West </b></center>

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Colin Knox</i>
<br />Guys you also forgot my detailed comments on the influence of Alcohol on marching rates as well.

I salute your scholarly efforts.



General de Brigade Knox
Baron de l'Empire



2e Regiment Gardes d'Honneur (the regaled pheasants)
La Jeune Garde



CO. 1er Brigade, III Division Cavalerie Legere, III Corps Armee du Nord
http://www.aspire.co.nz/colinknoxnwc.htm




<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I believe you were lit when you made those remarks Colin...[:p][:0]

Major General Ed Blackburn
Commanding Second Div, II Corps, AAA
3rd Bn / 1st Regiment of Foot Guards