Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)

The Rhine Tavern

*   NWC   NWC Staff   NWC Rules   NWC (DoR) Records   About Us   Send Email Inquiry to NWC

*   La Grande Armée Quartier Général    La Grande Armée Officer Records    Join La Grande Armée

*   Allied Coalition   Allied Officers   Join Coalition

*   Coalition Armies:   Austro-Prussian-Swedish Army   Anglo Allied Army (AAA)   Imperial Russian Army

 

Forums:    ACWGC    CCC     Home:    ACWGC    CCC
It is currently Sun May 11, 2025 12:43 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 20 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Leipzig Anniversary
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 4:47 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 10:18 am
Posts: 6158
For yesterday and the next few days: Leipzig Anniversary!

The largest land battle in European history until World War I which is rarely covered in books. (meanwhile, Waterloo, a battle I really could care less about is covered with millions of articles, books, etc - [xx(])

14th Leibertwolkwitz - one of the largest cavalry actions of the war - Murat and the Allies both misuse their cavalry which results in no effect for either side other than to lose more horses and riders.

15th More troops come up to the field.

16th Wachau - The Army of Bohemia launches an attack on Napoleon's southern front which results in the French counterattacking and driving them back. Fortunately for the Allies, the French forces that could have turned this into a victory for Napoleon must be used elsewhere.

Lindenau - The Austrian 3rd Korps with assistance from mobile cavalry formations and the 1st Light Division assault the western side of Leipzig but are repulsed when Bertrand's Corps arrives to save the day.

Mockern - Probably the key action of the battle. Blucher and the Army of Silesia arrive to assault Marmont's positions to the northwest of the city. III Corps could have saved the day but only a division (9th) takes part and the rest of the corps is sent to the south to supposedly help out Murat's front. Bertrand, of course, is aiding the defense of Lindenau. Marmont's forces put up a brave fight only to be smashed at the last by the Prussian cavalry reserve. He pulls most of his army back behind the Parthe.

17th - Blucher follows up his victory and smashes some French formations which remained behind but learns that Schwarzenberg has ordered that no attacks will occur this day while the Allies lick their wounds and await the arrival of the Army of the North and more Allies from the south and southeast.

18th - Bernadotte finally up with the Army of the North. Sporting an attitude after being reproached for not coming sooner his army takes a roundabout path to the battlefield. Instead of striking where Napoleon is weakest they instead opt for a concentric attack on his positions. Napoleon has wisely pulled back his forces to a line which can be more easily defended. His troops being retreating through the city. He is careful to do it in a manner that will not bring about panic but nonetheless there is only one bridge out of the city that the troops can use. Defense of the city is left to v.Hochberg who is given very little with which to work with. The fruit of this will be seen on the 19th. The attacks are met with determined resistance and the Allies cannot crack the French shell.

19th - The main part of the French army has retreated but there are still some 40,000-60,000 men on the right bank of the Elster. The suburbs are assaulted and the French corps are intermingled in the city to no purpose. Responsibility for destroying the bridge is eventually left to a NCO who blows the bridge prematurely. Napoleon loses most of these troops as a result. Poniatowski drowns while trying to swim the river.

And thus ends one of history's greatest battles. But so little is written about it that it still surprises most people that study the the Napoleonic Wars.

Both sides committed huge blunders. Here are a few of them:

14th - Murat uses his cavalry in a large block to no effect. Rather than combine his infantry and artillery (horse) with the cavalry His Rashness continues to believe that a large massed cavalry force will accomplish much on the battlefield. The result is a spent force that loses valuable troopers which could have been useful for Napoleon for the main battle.

The Allies use their cavalry in small groups, again with no infantry assistance. Little is accomplished as well. (this was a reoccurring theme with the Allies throughout the War of German Liberation).

15th - Here is where Napoleon could have used his forces to the north (Marmont) to attack the Allies in the south before they could assemble a larger force. The Austrian corps (except for Klenau) were mainly outside of supporting distance. While MacDonald and the II Cavalry Corps were absent he had enough manpower to overwhelm the Army of Bohemia.

16th - My take on the north: pull back Marmont from Mockern and blow the bridges. Assemble a grand battery (2) at key positions near Leipzig and deny the Army of Silesia the ability to link up with the main army to the south. Put Bertrand in Lindenau to protect the supply lines (and Blucher's possible move in that direction) to the Rhine/depots. Send the rest of the army to the south and hide them behind the hills in and around Wachau so that the Allies are unaware of the move. (this may be a good example of what we miss in our games - we rarely look at the battle from the other side of the hill - i.e. we open up the battle as the other side and do a check of LOS to get an idea of what the other side sees)

I believe that the result would have been that the Army of Bohemia would have had to withdraw and the Army of Silesia would have had to keep a respectful distance from Napoleon until Bernadotte arrived.

The Allies - a useless assault in the south which saw one complete Austrian corps moving on Connewitz to no avail. Better to just put a cavalry unit over there to keep the link with the forces facing Lindenau and use that force to assault Wachau.

Marmont has been blamed for the loss at Mockern but truly Napoleon and Ney deserve the blame. The former did not believe that the Army of Silesia was that close despite Marmont's messages to the contrary. Ney did a poor battlefield recon as well. The forces at Mockern were a hodge-podge collection. Marmont only could influence the placement of his corps and some cavalry assets. One wonders what Ney's role was supposed to have been. Traffic director for troops moving through Leipzig?

The French V Corps had some of the best line troops of the army. The Marine artillery units fought very well for the most part. So good that when one of them was defeated the Prussians claimed to have defeated the Marines of the Guard! Mockern was one of the most hotly contested villages of the entire wars.

17th - Schwarzenberg's desire to wait for more troops is probably wise and Blucher's clearing action on the northwest bank of the Parthe probably was all the Allies could hope for. The rain made musket fire mainly ineffective. The French were off balance in this sector but the Army of Bohemia had just fought a major battle and were in no condition to tie down Napoleon in the south. The French probably could have moved forces to check Blucher anyway (Yorck's corps is hors de combat after Mockern and its mainly the Russians and some Prussian cavalry that do the work)

18th - The Allies (Schwarzenberg) pressing for a broad front assault probably meant that Napoleon could escape. Better to transfer most of the Army of Bohemia over the river to fight towards Lindenau and make the French defend that side of the city. Blucher, likewise, could have slipped over to the south and kept a bulk of the French army busy while Schwarzenberg's forces make the main assault. Bernadotte and the advancing Russians from Dresden could have masked the city and held the French there to their front.

19th - The bridge. Pretty much the main error of this day. The lack of Napoleon to build more bridges to assist the army in retreating. Even had he not retreated more bridges would have resulted in a better line of communications.

Its a shame that more works are not written on this campaign. Digby-Smith's is one of the more recent works. I recently purchased it and he makes much use of quotes from officers and civilians at the battle. Some errors are noted (on Amazon's site) in the text which frankly surprised me but there is a dearth of material on this battle.

Other works to read:

Chandler - Campaigns of Napoleon - a good synopsis of the battle but dated. Outlines the key features of the battle.

Nafziger - Napoleon at Leipzig: The Battle of Nations 1813. Almost all of this third volume of his work on the 1813 campaign is about the battle. Other than Smith this is the most amount of pages devoted to the battle in any work I have read. Very detailed. Good if anyone wanted to put a game together on the campaign (computer or board).

Maude - dated work on the campaign. A good synopsis of the campaign that was a standard work read by officers in military staff colleges for years.

Hofschroer - Leipzig 1813 (Osprey Campaign series) - has nice diagrams of the battle but lacks detail where you need it most. Has maps of other battles such as Dresden and Wartenberg. Some take issue with his narrative. As usual the Osprey series has an OB which will help the gamer recreate the battle.

Bowden - Napoleon's Grande Armee of 1813 - mainly the OBs are the key point of this work. All French OBs - nothing on the Allies of course. It would be nice if he did up a book on the Allies OBs but Scott is mainly interested in telling the story of the campaigns from the French side.

Petre - Napoleon's Last Campaign in Germany 1813 - the usual work that I have read on the campaign. Very detailed and the maps are very helpful if sometimes indistinct. He gives the reader a good feel for the terrain prior to the battle.

Esposito/Elting - West Point Atlas of the Napoleonic Wars - good maps on Leipzig.

There are a few websites that have nice narrative and maps as well. Some include OBs. Here is one that is of good use:

http://napoleonistyka.atspace.com/Leipz ... of_leipzig

I have also purchased a game by Kevin Zucker/OSG:

Napoleon at the Crossroads

Along with his Strategic Studies they add in some interesting information on numbers for the troops.

One of his comments on Davout (that he was no longer the Iron Marshall) I found rather contradictory as from all accounts I have read, Davout was placed in Hamburg because he could be trusted to get the job done.

One wonders if Davout had been in charge of that vital southern front instead of Murat how the Battle of Wachau would have gone ...

The Russians from all I have read, still seemed to have been as brave as ever. While I wouldn't give them the morale of NRC I feel that they probably deserve a good rating anyway.

The Austrian army was nowhere near as good as that of 1809. Rothenberg comments in his great work "Napoleon's Great Advesary" that they couldn't execute the drill manual and were mainly used in columns for maneuver. But frankly how many units of this campaign could?

Colonel Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:14 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2003 10:08 am
Posts: 3843
Oh Yes Prussia's Great Day! [:X][;)][}:)]

<center>--------------------------------------------------------
Image
General der Infanterie Scott Kronprinz "Vorwärts" Ludwig von Preußen
(Old Windy) (Windbagfrankfurter) (The Mad Prussian) (Herr Windbagenführer)
Generalquartiermeister der Preußischen Armee
Kommandeur Garde-Grenadier-Korps
Königlich Preußische Armee am Niederrhein
Webmaster & Club Cabinet - Public Relations Officer
Vorwärts Meine Kinder, Vorwärts!!

[url="http://www.prussianarmy.com/"]Königliche Preußische Armee[/url]
[url="http://www.networkforgood.org"]Network for Good[/url]

[url="http://napoleonicwargaming.com"]Napoleonic Wargaming - INWC[/url]</center>


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 5:34 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 10:18 am
Posts: 6158
And Sweden too! [:p][:D] A great day for Sweden as they finally got to participate (in some part) in the war. (the men wanted to fight but that boob of a leader kept them out of it)

The Allies always got the better of our departed generals.

Moreau, Bernadotte, etc.

Jerome is up on the trading block if you would like him too! [;)]

No, we dont want Mack! Or Brunswick or Constantine! [:p]

You keep them.[;)]

Colonel Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:24 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2001 8:49 am
Posts: 1072
Location: USA
I have always been fascinated by the campaign as a whole and less by the battle of Leipzig itself. Lutzen, Bautzen (well, spring campaign), Dresden, Katzbach, Grossbereen, etc... The French had so many chances to win and could not unless Nappy himself was at hand.

Bill is right though, the first day of real fighting (after the cav battle) and the Mockern front are fascinating. If the 3rd Corps had been fully committed one way or the other the Grand Army may have lived to fight another day in Germany.

Feldmarschall Jim 'Prinz' Pfluecke
Commander, Austrian Cavalry Reserve
3 Graf O'Reilly Chevauxleger Rgt
Hahn Grenadier Bn


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 11:52 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2003 10:08 am
Posts: 3843
Well we had the sorts to win the war, much like the Union in the ACW... [:D]

<center>--------------------------------------------------------
Image
General der Infanterie Scott Kronprinz "Vorwärts" Ludwig von Preußen
(Old Windy) (Windbagfrankfurter) (The Mad Prussian) (Herr Windbagenführer)
Generalquartiermeister der Preußischen Armee
Kommandeur Garde-Grenadier-Korps
Königlich Preußische Armee am Niederrhein
Webmaster & Club Cabinet - Public Relations Officer
Vorwärts Meine Kinder, Vorwärts!!

[url="http://www.prussianarmy.com/"]Königliche Preußische Armee[/url]
[url="http://www.networkforgood.org"]Network for Good[/url]

[url="http://napoleonicwargaming.com"]Napoleonic Wargaming - INWC[/url]</center>


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2003 3:51 pm
Posts: 142
Location: Brisbane, Australia
It's always a fascinating to think about the "what ifs" of history. But in my opinion, these are better pondered at the turning point of wars, not on one side or the other of that turning point. With modern (or even pre modern) industrial production and logistics, I think every war reaches a point where the tactical is outweighed by the strategic: God loves the big battalions. I think by 1813 Europe had reached that point. The continued (although diminished) tactical superiority of the French was not enough to overcome the numbers. Because the allies distrusted Napoleon more than they distrusted each other, the French campaigns in 1813 and 1814 were doomed despite any tactical victories along the way.

I recognise the diffiulties this presents to war game enthusiasts, myself among them. But war is a grisly business, where the strong win, deserving or not.



Lt Colonel Neville Worland
Chef d'Etat-Major
Ier Corps de Réserve de Cavalerie
Army du Nord


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:26 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2001 8:49 am
Posts: 1072
Location: USA
Neville,
I would have to disagree. In the 1813 Spring Campaign, there were at least two 'turning points' that could have overcome the coalitions material advantages.

(1) Ney at Bautzen. If he had been able to put his three corps into the battle in a timely matter (if Davout or Soult had been in his shoes perhaps history would actually be different), he could have slammed shut the Prussian and Russian avenue of retreat and Nappy could havce scored a crushing victory despite his lack of cavalry. If the two allied armies were smashed it is likely that Austria would not have entered the conflict.

(2) Austria's offer for armed mediation. Throughout the Winter and Spring of 1813, Austria had an offer on the table that would have greatly increased Austrian power while decreasing France's direct holdings and hamstringing the Confederation of the Rhine. France would still be more powerful than her pre-Revolutionary days but would be greatly restrained from its 1809 peak in both Italy/Dalmatia and Germany. From what I have read, Austria was sincere about not going to war against France if it got what it wanted. Despite the allies distrust of Nappy they all continued to play the long-term strategic game against each other throughout.

I am less willing to disagree with you once the summer stretched into fall and the Austrians joined the Coalition. It is possible that if the French had been able to win most of the battles that Nappy was not present for, some sort of equilibrium could have set in. But I agree with you that it is unlikely that the French could win anything lasting through force of arms from August 1813 onwards. In 1814 it was all over but the shouting, as they say....

Feldmarschall Jim 'Prinz' Pfluecke
Commander, Austrian Cavalry Reserve
3 Graf O'Reilly Chevauxleger Rgt
Hahn Grenadier Bn


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:15 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 12:32 am
Posts: 908
Location: Moscow, Russia
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Neville Worland</i>
But war is a grisly business, where the strong win, deserving or not.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

At the outbreak of Russian campaign Napoleon had his 2.5-3:1 advantage in numbers and his so called geniality at hand. He organized supply of his troops so well, detached corps commanders he placed were so successful that at the gates of Moscow his army was almost equal to the Russian. His army continued to vanish while Russian continued to strengthen until only a shadow retreated back to Poland. He had his chance and missed it. In 1813-14 the Allies had their chance and used it to the full extent. It's strange to hear they didn't deserve it. I would rather say Nappy does not deserve his fame.

<center>Image</center>
<center><b>Eyo Imperatorskogo Velichestva Leib-Kirassirskogo polku
General-Adjutant Anton Valeryevich Kosyanenko
Commander of the Second Army of the West </b></center>


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:04 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 9:01 am
Posts: 1411
Location: USA
Nap's main problem in 1813 was the dreadful state of the French mounted arm. The lack of numerous good quality cavalry was fatal in that Napoleon was unable to turn his three tactical victories into a strategic victory a la 1806.[:D]

Major General Ed Blackburn
Commanding Second Div, II Corps, AAA
3rd Bn / 1st Regiment of Foot Guards
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:56 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 4:11 pm
Posts: 1765
Location: New Zealand
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Kosyanenko</i>

I would rather say Nappy does not deserve his fame.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Sir you go to far.[:D] Napoleon was the greatest soldier in history. He lead in no less than 13 campaigns and I think it was 39 battles winning the majority. No other officer in history compares.

As a statesman I would agree he was badly flawed and indeed a real gambler. But as a warrior on the battlefield he was superb. Even in 1815 there is much to admire. Study the French Ligny deployment carefully for an insight.

I also agree with Jim had Ney pulled his finger out at Bautzen 1813 may well have turned out different.

As for the campaign of 1812 I must credit the superb Russian man of the line. Fearless, tenacious and dedicated they vanquished histories greatest general. At Borodino Tondu was astounded by their indomitable spirit.

The Napoleonic wars was a watershed that saw Napoleons operational techniques ultimately form the basis of modern military doctrine. Particulalry the development of the attack by paralysation and other techniques that emerged from WW2. Napoleons concept of the fixing battle facilitated by the corp system is described by the Americans today as 'Find em fix em F..k em'.

I recognise Russian doctrine followed a different course but perhaps if it had not the disasters of 1941 would have been avoided.

Now don't take me too seriously gents I am a dedicated fan of N.[:o)]



General de Brigade Knox
Grand Duc d'Austerlitz et Comte de Argentan

Image

Escadron Mamelouks
Chasseurs a'Cheval
Division de Cavalerie la Vieille Garde.

Image



CO. 1er Brigade, III Division Cavalerie Legere, III Corps Armee du Nord
http://www.aspire.co.nz/colinknoxnwc.htm


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:56 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 10:18 am
Posts: 6158
The main thing that Napoleon had was confidence. Very few commanders of this period acted with confidence.

Even when he wasn't the leader of France (1796-97) he acted with energy and direction. The rest of the commanders were tied to an old method of waging war.

It would not be fair to the other nations to say that Napoleon brought about his own downfall but certainly Spain and Russia were the graveyards of the Napoleonic empire. 1813 in Germany saw him more and more having to trust subordinates at distant locations.

Colonel Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:47 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 12:32 am
Posts: 908
Location: Moscow, Russia
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Colin Knox</i>
<br />
Sir you go to far.[:D] Napoleon was the greatest soldier in history.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Colin,

I just stick to his own words. "A general operating not in a desert, who knows nothing about his enemy's plans, does not know his duty." From 1812 on he didn't, hence...

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Ed Blackburn</i>
<br />
Nap's main problem in 1813 was the dreadful state of the French mounted arm.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Ed,

Please tell me who was responsible for that? I can find only one sufficient candidate and he occupied the post of French Emperor.

Please compare:
-At the beginning of campaign Napoleons army had about 200 000 horses. Mikhailovski-Danilevski gives a number 187 111, too precise for me.
-Russian army at the same time had about 100 000 horses.
-late in June or early in July 1812 (writing by memory can find the exact date) Alexandr I sent his minister of police Balashev to Don with orders to by 30 000 horses to replace losses that will happen during the campaign. Later on somewhere in September or so he was ordered to by another 30 000. Add those brought by 36 cossack regiments of 2 and 3 line (18 000), those in provisional squadrons (about 20 000) and those of militia (more than 10 000). The first bunch was brought, trained and used in campaign of 1813, the second - in late 1813 and 1814. All this concerns only horses for mounts. Draught horses including those for arty and wagoons were collected separately.
-Napoleon gave his orders to by horses in Poland from Smolenks on his way back from Moscow. It was October. He asked and begged to by at least 6 000. 3 for arty and 3 for cav.

I can't understand how could a man give such an order! His army needed at least 60-70 000 more horses to maintain it's mobility and firepower (no horses - no arty on the field. ) at least at the level of 1812 spring. BTW this level proved to be too low to deal with Russian army. It's not a half measure, it's 1/10 measure. I never heard of any other orders about horses in 1812. They exist in 1813 when he deserted his army and left to Paris. He either didn't understand in fall of 1812 such a problem exists (and hence didn't know his duty according to his own words) or knew about that but did nothing (and hence he was leading his army and country to a well understood suicide with no thread for him personally). Anyway he had no one else to blame but himself.

Knowing that someone dares say allies didn't deserve their victory. They (Alexandr personally did) knew the loses would be enormous and acted to bring in reinforcements to fill the ranks. It's unclear did Napoleon know of the problem or not. Anyway he didn't take APPROPRIATE measures. It inevitably meant that in 1813 he won't have enough horses. Taking into account the overall intention to get rid of hit it inevitably meant that in 1814 he won't have his throne.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Colin Knox</i>
<br />
Study the French Ligny deployment carefully for an insight.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I did. The lace of d'Erlons corps route is a real masterpiece. Only a genius could leave a whole corps between two superior commanders with no clear orders and with no real explanation about whose orders he should obey!

<center>Image</center>
<center><b>Eyo Imperatorskogo Velichestva Leib-Kirassirskogo polku
General-Adjutant Anton Valeryevich Kosyanenko
Commander of the Second Army of the West </b></center>


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 3:38 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 9:01 am
Posts: 1411
Location: USA
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Kosyanenko</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Colin Knox</i>
<br />
Sir you go to far.[:D] Napoleon was the greatest soldier in history.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Kolin,

I just stick to his own words. "A general operating not in a desert, who knows nothing about his enemy's plans, does not know his duty." From 1812 on he didn't, hence...

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Ed Blackburn</i>
<br />
Nap's main problem in 1813 was the dreadful state of the French mounted arm.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Ed,

Please tell me who was responsible for that? I can find only one sufficient candidate and he occupied the post of French Emperor.

Please compare:
-At the beginning of campaign Napoleons army had about 200 000 horses. Mikhailovski-Danilevski gives a number 187 111, too precise for me.
-Russian army at the same time had about 100 000 horses.
-late in June or early in July 1812 (writing by memory can find the exact date) Alexandr I sent his minister of police Balashev to Don with orders to by 30 000 horses to replace losses that will happen during the campaign. Later on somewhere in September or so he was ordered to by another 30 000. Add those brought by 36 cossack regiments of 2 and 3 line (18 000), those in provisional squadrons (about 20 000) and those of militia (more than 10 000). The first bunch was brought, trained and used in campaign of 1813, the second - in late 1813 and 1814. All this concerns only horses for mounts. Draught horses including those for arty and wagoons were collected separately.
-Napoleon gave his orders to by horses in Poland from Smolenks on his way back from Moscow. It was October. He asked and begged to by at least 6 000. 3 for arty and 3 for cav.

I can't understand how could a man give such an order! His army needed at least 60-70 000 more horses to maintain it's mobility and firepower (no horses - no arty on the field. ) at least at the level of 1812 spring. BTW this level proved to be too low to deal with Russian army. It's not a half measure, it's 1/10 measure. I never heard of any other orders about horses in 1812. They exist in 1813 when he deserted his army and left to Paris. He either didn't understand in fall of 1812 such a problem exists (and hence didn't know his duty according to his own words) or knew about that but did nothing (and hence he was leading his army and country to a well understood suicide with no thread for him personally). Anyway he had no one else to blame but himself.

Knowing that someone dares say allies didn't deserve their victory. They (Alexandr personally did) knew the loses would be enormous and acted to bring in reinforcements to fill the ranks. It's unclear did Napoleon know of the problem or not. Anyway he didn't take APPROPRIATE measures. It inevitably meant that in 1813 he won't have enough horses. Taking into account the overall intention to get rid of hit it inevitably meant that in 1814 he won't have his throne.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Colin Knox</i>
<br />
Study the French Ligny deployment carefully for an insight.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I did. The lace of d'Erlons corps route is a real masterpiece. Only a genius could leave a whole corps between two superior commanders with no clear orders and with no real explanation about whose orders he should obey!

<center>Image</center>
<center><b>Eyo Imperatorskogo Velichestva Leib-Kirassirskogo polku
General-Adjutant Anton Valeryevich Kosyanenko
Commander of the Second Army of the West </b></center>

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

No argument with you Anton but just to amplify your findings, the issue with the cavalry was not soley with the cavalry mounts. The Frecnh lost most of their trained cavalarymen in Russia during the 1812 disater. It takes much longer to train and make a decent cavalry trooper thant to train conscript infantry. The French problem was not as much to few cavalry as it was to few GOOD cavalry. Napoleon was let down over and over again in every area which the cavalry is responsible during 1813. By 1815 the cavalry was much recovered and performed quite well despite losing the campaign.

Napoleon was a master of organization over all throughout his life, he was a great innovator and was very flexible in his battles. He was not fixed to any one plan but watched and waited for the right moment to commit his reserves. Somtimes he just lucky and somtimes his subordinates won the battle for him (Desaix at Marengo). You have to look at over all body of work for the man and I agree with those who say he was a genuis though not infallible.

He was not at his best at Leipzig IMO but his 1814 camapign was brilliant in a losing cause.[:)]

Major General Ed Blackburn
Commanding Second Div, II Corps, AAA
3rd Bn / 1st Regiment of Foot Guards
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:31 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 12:32 am
Posts: 908
Location: Moscow, Russia
Ed,

all of the problems are complex. To have a good cavalry one needs to have:
-Able and experienced generals;
-Well trained promising officers;
-Experienced NCOs;
-Disciplined rank and file;
-Good mounts;
-Enough weapons;
-Appropriate clothing;
etc. etc. etc.

If something is missing the cavalry would be worse. If many things are missing it would be bad. Napoleons cavalry in 1813-14 was a bad one compared to the allies. I just pointed out that there were problems that were not addressed properly or not at all. Too bad for a genius, as I think. Especially if "casual people" managed to perform better.

Argument of whether he was genius or not is fruitless. I entered it just to show there is a great variety of issues. It's sad to see clever people, interested in the subject, repeating all the same mantras about "role of genius", "loosers-subordinates", "the all defeating Frost", etc. instead of trying to understand what happened and why. Tons of trash are published telling about his geniality in creating a new army in 1813. All of them grieving he didn't manage to recreate his cavalry while "artillery was as perfect as always". Apparently no one of the authors realize that to have a strong cav in 1813 he must have started recreating it before it was lost - in the summer of 1812.

I just try to follow Descartian principle to put at question everything, that is not absolutely obvious. It's the matter of attitude, the matter of posing the question. I treat a statement "Napoleon was a genius" not as an underlying principle of the universe but as a working hypothesis that can prove right or wrong. More often wrong than right as it turns out so far.

<center>Image</center>
<center><b>Eyo Imperatorskogo Velichestva Leib-Kirassirskogo polku
General-Adjutant Anton Valeryevich Kosyanenko
Commander of the Second Army of the West </b></center>


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:40 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 12:32 am
Posts: 908
Location: Moscow, Russia
I join to the note that would be posted by D.S. Walter. Please do quote only the lines you need. The posts are very long by themselves to artificially lengthen them.[:)][;)][:I]

<center>Image</center>
<center><b>Eyo Imperatorskogo Velichestva Leib-Kirassirskogo polku
General-Adjutant Anton Valeryevich Kosyanenko
Commander of the Second Army of the West </b></center>


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 20 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 36 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
POWERED_BY
Localized by Maël Soucaze © 2010 phpBB.fr