Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)

I have sent off to a group of testers a list of proposed morale changes for the 1809 games. Most of them are in total agreement with the changes. Still waiting to hear back from busy Paco and Tomasz on them.

1. Meanwhile, the main topic here is skirmishers. Here is where I expect the French historians to object.

In many of our games the French have been able to deploy tons of skirmishers against the Austrians and its been one of the unbalancing factors in the games.

Now frankly its historical in part. The French III Corps (1-4 Divs not the 5th Div) in particular was able to deploy totally into skirmish order. Most board games of this period portray this (the S&T games on Abensberg and Eckmuhl have skirmisher units that are pretty effective).

What I am advocating is to limit the ability to skirmish in total to just elite units like the 57th Ligne and the Legere of that corps. The other units can still deploy one company.

That will still give the French a major advantage. As most of you know the Austrians put most of their light bns. into their own divisions. This "bunches" the lights into one place. If one of the large brigades shows up without lights then they are going to have to fend off the skirmishers.

Totally historical yes, but I would like to cut back the amount of skirmishers that the French are deploying. They will still have a healthy amount as it is.

2. Ok, next topic. French II Corps was composed of 4th Bns. I feel that they should be morale 3 (D). These were the same guys that ran for the Danube at Wagram when John's Ghost showed up (actually units from another Austrian command). I feel that they should not get the same rating as the regulars of III, IV Corps. Comments?

3. Next, the Galician regiments of the Austrian army were not as good on the battlefield as the Hungarians and Austrian (Moravian/Bohemian/Inner and Outer Austria/Tyrol) regiments. Thus I am for giving them morale 3 as well.

4. Grenzers will all be 5 morale (similar to the French Legere). Napoleon considered them the best troops that the Austrians had (with select regiments from the main army included such as Deuchmeister). Top rated Grenzers will be morale 6 (just like a French Legere unit that is considered elite).

When all the dust settled we end up with two armies that have a wider variation than before but the Austrians gained some in the cavalry dept. while the French lost some in one corps (but the Galician regiments balance that out).

Comments?

I will be happy to send a list of the proposed changes to anyone that would like them. Please email me (dont use this thread to request them please) if you want a copy. Its in spreadsheet form. You would need to own Office 2007 or be able to download the Viewer from the MS website.

The orgs are also getting renamed. No more "1st Brigade" - it will be more like what you see in Campaign Austerlitz.

Colonel Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt, Austerlitz and ... more to come)
Not the President of the Musket and Cannon Club

Thanks Bill,
I have played these two games almost exclusively as the Austrians, but have spent a fair amount of time pouring over the French OOB because I think it is a fascinating one, with all of the Germans and Italians etc.

I think downgrading morale almost across the board (outside French III Corps) sounds right. Although I am no expert in this period, it seems that the Austrians are overrated in Eckmuhl and much of the French too.

IMHO, high morales increase the amount of melee and decrease the tactical effectiveness of artillery. If artillery does not cuase some routing and disorder, it (a) is vulnerable to being overrun and (b) does not cause the percentage of losses (due to being overrun/forced back and because without disorder/routing, battles speed up and artillery has fewer opportunities) that it did in history, especially in a battle like Wagram.

As for skirmishers, I am not qualified to comment...but I hate those pesky French skirmishers!

Feldmarschall Jim 'Prinz' Pfluecke
Commander, Austrian Cavalry Reserve
3 Graf O'Reilly Chevauxleger Rgt
Hahn Grenadier Bn

"As for skirmishers, I am not qualified to comment...but I hate those pesky French skirmishers!"

Most Austrian members do! [:D]

If only they could understand - these are our version of schnitzel vendors! You guys should organize some vendors too! [:p]

Colonel Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt, Austerlitz and ... more to come)
Not the President of the Musket and Cannon Club

about 14 years ago, I was in Erlangen, Germany (north of Nuremberg) and my friend took me to a burrito stand. My buddy ordered in german and then spoke to me in English. The guy running the place asked us where we were from (Michigan), announced he was from Tennessee, and said it was ok that we were yanks. Only time I have ever been called a yank! But he did not sell Snitzel.

In all seriousness, I think overall lower unit ratings equals slower attacks and somewhat lower, and more historical, losses. Sure, as individual units, the Austrians fought well in much of this campaign, but I think they have too many A inf.

Feldmarschall Jim 'Prinz' Pfluecke
Commander, Austrian Cavalry Reserve
3 Graf O'Reilly Chevauxleger Rgt
Hahn Grenadier Bn

Sounds fair to me Bill. The morales are too high in these games so thats good news.

As for the skirmishers my only comment is that the Austrians have a lot of big btns which is their 'systemic advantage' I would argue the same can be said of the French skirmishers.

For example if you stack 2 x 500 men units in one hex to equate to a big btn of say eg 1000 you are at a tactical disadvantage when artillery fires on you. This can be offset as French player by including skirmishers with you units to increase their flexibility and fire power. Which is also quite historical as a single hex is a big space and this could signify the swarm of tirralluers that preceded a French assault or defense. But over to you though.

As regards II corps I recall they did pretty well at Wagram in a frontal assault of the high ground. Might be worth checking that particular battle for more detail. I am on holiday so I don't have the relevant book handy.

Salute!





General de Brigade Knox
Grand Duc d'Austerlitz et Comte de Argentan



Escadron Mamelouks
Chasseurs a'Cheval
Division de Cavalerie la Vieille Garde.





CO. 1er Brigade, III Division Cavalerie Legere, III Corps Armee du Nord
http://www.aspire.co.nz/colinknoxnwc.htm

I would like to see John move the morale/quality test from a D6 to a D10. This would allow the median morale/quality level to be more spread out, and individual and types of units could have it's own level.

Just a dream.[:)]

Colonel Al Amos
1ère Brigade Commandant, 2ème Division de Dragons "Gare aux Dragons!"
Ier Corps de Réserve de Cavalerie "Vae Victis!"
L'Armée du Nord

Al,

That is always a good idea and something that was usually done with miniatures by throwing two D6 die. It always gave a better range of factors and effect. Also with the percentage chances of 7 etc you had a good scale to work with, ie probability was there. Bill is there any way to enable such probability with the D6 and D10 or is it just a straight up D10 ":throw of the die" with factors built in?

I would be keen to see the D10 bought in with these games so don't give up on your "dream" yet! [:D]

I do believe though that the skm effect was more on the fatigue and moral side rather than actual casualties (on most occassions).

Also wasn't one of the reasons they deployed as such was to get the enemy to fire off their first volley/s? As it was true the first few were always the most effective and then reduced effect was the norm for continued firing.

I would prefer to see an enhanced fire/moral effect given for a first (maybe up to three) volley and then each volly their after having a cumulative reduced effect until you reached a minimum effect level where it remains until maybe your fatigue is recovered and then its back to the first volly efect etc etc. Does that sound more familiar? (Albuera is a classic example of this).

Those are a couple of my dreams [:D]..My biggest however is seeing a stop to frontal melee attacks on steady (non-disordered) infantry! [:)] [?]

But I love the developmental improvements of the game and the detail thats being looked at. For a system to survive these discussions, cooperative and mutual understandings, are a must. Otherwise it would be like living behind an iron curtain and you'd not realise the real potential until it all came crashing down around you [;)]. Then you'd just be Left out in the cold with no one to play with [:)].

Way to go the HPS team!



Col Mike Ellwood
Konig Regt
1 Bde, 22 Div
VII Saxon Corps, ADR

Mike,

In the BG series JT had 6 levels of quality A-F, and they had to pass a randomly generated number of 1-6 which was then modified for various reasons.

When JT went to the HPS style engine he increased the levels of quality to 9 (A+++)-F, but he kept the randomly generated base number for morale checks at 1-6. This means any unit rated A+, A++ or A+++ (7,8 or 9 in the OOB file) could not fail without negative modifiers applied.

This is what I would like to see him change. Set the range for the randomly generated base number on morale checks to 1-9, this would allow the A+ and higher units to have some chance of having morale issues before they hit max fatigue & 75% casualties.

Colonel Al Amos
1ère Brigade Commandant, 2ème Division de Dragons "Gare aux Dragons!"
Ier Corps de Réserve de Cavalerie "Vae Victis!"
L'Armée du Nord

Please - lets stay on topic. If you have ideas for the engine take it to another thread.

I thought of the d10 thing just this week too (funny enough). It is not something I am going to push as it would mean alot of testing in games to see if it works. I just cant see the Old Guard routing on a 20 percent chance either. (that is if the die is 1-10)

Anyway keep your replies to just the four items I listed for the OBs guys. Much thanks in advance.

Colonel Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt, Austerlitz and ... more to come)
Not the President of the Musket and Cannon Club

Ok my 2c on the subjects at hand :

1. I think the old/current system works well historically with Line Bns only getting 1xcoy worth and the Legere being able to break down into the whole unit. However I think ALL legere and other nationality light Bns should have to keep a formed body of at least 1xCoy at all times. No unit able to break down 100% to skm coys. Also I would restrict the Elite units in the same manner. Personally I don't think the Elite units should be able to break down in anything other than built up areas, woods and orchards (especially Guards units becuase they didn't to my knowledge).

2. 4th and 5th Bns as D class - Yes that would be justified in some periods for sure.

3. Yes also agree but maybe check there weren't any "good" units that did stand out.

4. Again that is my reading of the Grenzers and fairly common in minatures as well. Would you look at raising some of the stand out French Legere units to 7?

Bill do you sleep? [:)]

Col Mike Ellwood
Konig Regt
1 Bde, 22 Div
VII Saxon Corps, ADR

#1. I agree. The parent should have to remain intact.

#3. This has been done. Along with what Bill Cann sent me I also have older text files that outlined the Austrian units that were better than others. Examples: Deutchmeister IR#4. If you want to see my spreadsheet just email me for a copy. It has them all laid out in numerical order with each region listed next to the morale column in different colors.

#4. No. 7 is too high. I think that the 57th Ligne is a 6. 10th Legere is also a 6. I dont want to make line units into Guards.

Colonel Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt, Austerlitz and ... more to come)
Not the President of the Musket and Cannon Club

"I just cant see the Old Guard routing on a 20 percent chance either. (that is if the die is 1-10)" Bill

Bill that is correct for rolling of a die, but I used the term D10 since the majority of us are familiar with it. In my follow-up post I specified the 1-9 base, and why. If JT programs a random number of 1-9 then it has only a base of 11% chance which can be erased by using the GOLDEN MORALE. Isn't that set for a 2 level jump? If so then A+++ units with the minus (-) would have a -11% chance of failing with no modifiers.

BTW, you've hijacked many threads in your life here. It happens, but I do like the new thread for engine tweaks. [:D]


Colonel Al Amos
1ère Brigade Commandant, 2ème Division de Dragons "Gare aux Dragons!"
Ier Corps de Réserve de Cavalerie "Vae Victis!"
L'Armée du Nord

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Al Amos</i>
<br />"I just cant see the Old Guard routing on a 20 percent chance either. (that is if the die is 1-10)" Bill

Bill that is correct for rolling of a die, but I used the term D10 since the majority of us are familiar with it. In my follow-up post I specified the 1-9 base, and why. If JT programs a random number of 1-9 then it has only a base of 11% chance which can be erased by using the GOLDEN MORALE. Isn't that set for a 2 level jump? If so then A+++ units with the minus (-) would have a -11% chance of failing with no modifiers.

BTW, you've hijacked many threads in your life here. It happens, but I do like the new thread for engine tweaks. [:D]


Colonel Al Amos
1ère Brigade Commandant, 2ème Division de Dragons "Gare aux Dragons!"
Ier Corps de Réserve de Cavalerie "Vae Victis!"
L'Armée du Nord
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Then use the new thread as I will not discuss anything here other than the Eckmuhl/Wagram OBs.

This is the last note on this. I am askng John Corbin to delete any future posts you make in this thread. You saw his last comment in the other thread I did on Jena. I hope you read it and comply with the rules of the forum. Its something others are living with and you are no exception.

I am trying to support you in your current economic situation. The least you can do is support me here.

Colonel Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt, Austerlitz and ... more to come)
Not the President of the Musket and Cannon Club

"This is the last note on this." -Bill

Guess again! hehehe....

I'm sorry I didn't get that money gram you sent me. [:D][:p]

How exactly is talking about you supporting me in my current economic situation 'On Topic' with the Eckmuhl/Wagram OB project?

I replied to your rebuttal. If John wants to move these Off Topic posts to the New Engine thread, that's okay, but for me to post a rebuttal to a post of yours on this thread over there on that thread, would have been confusing to anyone reading either post. So instead of asking John to delete the posts, ask him to move them to the appropriate thread: my posts and your posts as well.

... and one more time. You have hijacked so many threads in your club career, it seems kind of funny you callin' foul on others, but I do agree a pure thread is better, however having posts that are directly related to each other in the same thread is better, too.

BTW, for everyone confused. I lost my job last week due to having a wreck with my Postal Truck. AND for the record, Bill's support of my current economic situation has been only in spirit, and should not be construed that he is sending me, or has sent me, any money. [:)]

Colonel Al Amos
1ère Brigade Commandant, 2ème Division de Dragons "Gare aux Dragons!"
Ier Corps de Réserve de Cavalerie "Vae Victis!"
L'Armée du Nord

I have asked John Corbin to lock this topic.

As of tonite (and you can all thank Mr. Amos) I am through posting on this forum.

I will just discuss engine changes and OB updates within my group.

Its a shame that a few people have to ruin it for the rest of us.

If any of you guys have comments about the games just send them to the HPS Support email. Rich can forward them to me that way. Others that know me well can email me direct. I will be happy to discuss the games with you in that method.

Colonel Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt, Austerlitz and ... more to come)
Not the President of the Musket and Cannon Club