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 Post subject: 196 years ago...
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 6:48 am 
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After 25 years of wars and horrors, starvation and poverty the Peace comes. At the head of His army His Majesty conquers the nest of rebellion and brings the Europe deliverance from the Evil. Let the Peace last in ages! Let the liberated Nations never forget their Champion! Let us never forget those who sacrificed themselves to bring peace and prosperity to the whole continent! URA!

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<center><b>Eyo Imperatorskogo Velichestva Leib-Kirassirskogo polku
General-Adjutant Anton Valeryevich Kosyanenko
Commander of the Second Army of the West </b></center>


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:40 am 
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Wasn't this a bit premature Anton, he came back a year later. None the less your point is taken.[:D]

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:41 am 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by zinkyusa</i>
<br />Wasn't this a bit premature Anton, Napoleon came back a year later. None the less your point is taken.[:D]

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<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

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3rd Bn / 1st Regiment of Foot Guards
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:00 am 
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Back in March 1814 no one could expect that Bonaparte will come back in order to make France, already standing on the knees, kiss the ground.

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<center><b>Eyo Imperatorskogo Velichestva Leib-Kirassirskogo polku
General-Adjutant Anton Valeryevich Kosyanenko
Commander of the Second Army of the West </b></center>


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:26 pm 
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Actually Russia, Austria, Britain and Prussia did more to bring war to Europe than Napoleon.

They were constantly organizing one coalition after another against him.

My thoughts were that if they wanted peace they would leave revolutionary France alone.

Colonel Bill Peters, 17th Dragoons, III Corps, French Army
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt, Austerlitz and ... more to come)
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:10 pm 
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Bah Bill! France was an octopus with its tentacles all over Europe.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:30 pm 
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Bah Bill! France was an octopus with its tentacles all over Europe.

Podporuchik HarryInkski,
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 3:44 am 
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I'm sorry Harry, would you please repeat your statement! [:D]

Actually Revolutionary France, though bloody in its inception, was not an empire and Napoleon stepped in on the heels of several attempts to restore the idiotic monarchy. Kings and dukes living high on the hog while people starved to death and with very little concern for the most part.

The European powers were basically enslaving their people (in armies) to do their dirty work for them. Men were conscripted into armies to fight in wars that were a constant drain on the economy and will of the people.

This was LONG before Napoleon arrived.

By the time Napoleon got into power the resentment of the French people towards the other powers made them only too glad to serve him (at first).

The War of the Third Coalition (Austerlitz) was an alliance formed before Napoleon turned on Austria. Napoleon knew that he could not invade England (the real power behind the alliances - and that to project her merchant octopus across the world, right?) so he turned on Austria (the main army power on the continent throughout the wars).

Knock out Austria and Russia always retreats. Pretty simple strategy.

Ok, so he wins at Austerlitz. Does this stop the Allies? No. Prussia rattles the saber, jumps in the saddle and gets humiliated. Russia honors their promise and after a hard fought set of campaigns loses and signs a treaty.

So who was the instigator of the wars? England! In order to protect her MASSIVE empire, which makes Napoleon's look small in comparison, she pays for some four to five major wars against Napoleon.

Even in Spain, Napoleon saw the influence of the British. I do not approve at all of what he did there. His diplomacy, as I have pointed out not long ago, was awful. Had he played off the powers as he did his Marechals things might have gone differently for Europe.

I laugh at Anton's pointing out how great the Tsar was because basically the majority of Russians at this time were serfs, sentenced to spend their lives working for someone else's profit whereas in Europe people could choose more or less what they would do as a career. Russia was still back in the old era. It would take a revolution to show the Tsars that they had gone too far.

The Tsar did nothing for Europe. He was not their saviour. Truly it was nationalism that won back Germany and defeated France. If Prussia had not been able to mobilize fully in 1813 Napoleon would have reigned supreme for probably five more years. Only his ambition and pride stopped him from ruling for another 15 years or more (health and France permitting).

I might point out also that European bungling allowed Napoleon to rule longer than he should have. Had the powers been unified in European interests rather than worrying about the spoils to be divided he may have been toppled sooner. Its the other powers that are to blame for Europe remaining under the heel of France.

I note that had the people of France not been open for the king to return then the powers would have done the same thing to them that Napoleon did to Germany and Italy. They were no different.

I only need point to the Congress of Vienna to show how the powers of Europe were bound to their national interests rather than concern over the people to back up my claim that they were just as bad as Napoleon and in some ways worse. You would think that 1813 had taught their grand children that war is too costly to fight over a matter of pride but in August of 1914 they would commit many more men that was ever imagined to war with casualties sometimes in ONE battle more than the Allies fielded in 1813.

Colonel Bill Peters, 17th Dragoons, III Corps, French Army
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt, Austerlitz and ... more to come)
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 2:29 am 
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Bill,

control questions:

1. What is serfdom? How it affected the lifestyle of those people in question? In particular their freedom to choose their own occupation. When was it formally abolished? De facto abolished? How do the answers correlate with statement "the majority of Russians at this time were serfs, sentenced to spend their lives working for someone else's profit whereas in Europe people could choose more or less what they would do as a career"?(Hint: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serfdom#Da ... _countries)

2. What are guilds? How did they affect the lifestyle of those people in question? In particular their freedom to choose their own occupation. When were they formally abolished? De facto abolished? How do the answers correlate with statement "the majority of Russians at this time were serfs, sentenced to spend their lives working for someone else's profit whereas in Europe people could choose more or less what they would do as a career"? (Hint: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guild)

3. Does unconditional statement "and Russia always retreats" contradict with statement "Russia honors their promise" in the very next paragraph? Could you bring more examples of one or both of the phenomena in XVIII-XX centuries?

4. What was the rate of casualties in the ages before the French Revolution, during it, in times of Empire and after it? How does statement "Men were conscripted into armies to fight in wars that were a constant drain on the economy and will of the people" correlate with these findings?

5. What were the "feeding habits" of French Revolutionary/Empire armies, cossacks and all the other troops in XVIII-early XIX century? How did these habits affect the local population? How does statement "Men were conscripted into armies to fight in wars that were a constant drain on the economy and will of the people" correlate with these findings?

6. Why didn't German nationalism liberate the Faterland in 1812? What event brought to life all the volunteers formations of 1813? How do the answers correlate with statement "The Tsar did nothing for Europe. He was not their saviour."?

7. What was the composition of the Allied armies in the Battle of Nations? What nation has the largest contingent present? What troops did take the most active part on the Allied side? Why the battle plan for the allied side was created exactly as it was? What were the alternatives? How do the answers correlate with statement "The Tsar did nothing for Europe. He was not their saviour."? (Hint: http://napoleonistyka.atspace.com/Leipz ... ssian_army)

8. What were the allied plans for campaign of 1814? What aims did any of the major powers have? What key actors were present? What were the alternatives? How do the answers correlate with statement "The Tsar did nothing for Europe. He was not their saviour."? (Hint:http://napoleonistyka.atspace.com/La_Rothiere_battle.htm#_Allies)

Live and learn!

Take care!

<center>Image</center>
<center><b>Eyo Imperatorskogo Velichestva Leib-Kirassirskogo polku
General-Adjutant Anton Valeryevich Kosyanenko
Commander of the Second Army of the West </b></center>


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 5:06 am 
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You have to be joking of course. It is April 1st so you must be pulling my leg.

Colonel Bill Peters, 17th Dragoons, III Corps, French Army
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt, Austerlitz and ... more to come)
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:53 am 
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Bill a further question:

How many Cossacks does it take to raid a French Bakery?
[:)]


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:54 am 
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Bill a further question:

How many Cossacks does it take to raid a French Bakery?
[:)]


General de Brigade Knox
Grand Duc d'Austerlitz et Comte de Argentan

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Escadron Mamelouks
Chasseurs a'Cheval
Division de Cavalerie la Vieille Garde.

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CO. 1er Brigade, II Heavy Cavalry Division, Reserve Cavalry.
http://www.aspire.co.nz/colinknoxnwc.htm


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:58 am 
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How can I help playing with your whiskers?[;)]

Seriously, do I believe that Alexander was The Savior of Europe?
Of course not!
Did he play one of the most important roles?
Of course he did!
If one tries to leave him out of history his version will not be coherent. My 8 questions reveal some of the contradictions.

<center>Image</center>
<center><b>Eyo Imperatorskogo Velichestva Leib-Kirassirskogo polku
General-Adjutant Anton Valeryevich Kosyanenko
Commander of the Second Army of the West </b></center>


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 1:13 pm 
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I would leave this discussion in the 1st of April where it belongs as seriously this is becoming boring![:(!]

Patton understood histories lessons will never be fully comprehended by most of us.

Col Mike Ellwood
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 11:56 pm 
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Well, for a newbie it paints the ground nicely. ;) Don't mean to stir things up too much. I see why Anton seems out of character when he and Bill agree.

Actually, on a side point. I did history @ uni and so have a long time interest, as most here seem to do. Life shifts your perspective on events and people. I wonder if it's just that I've enjoyed 'The Sopranos' too much now that I tend to view the leaders of these wars as so much well dressed mafioso. However, they don't get the psychotherapy that Tony enjoys so they're nicely contained inside their gentlemanly world. I see the soldiers as very often being or becoming just the same - little mafiosi, whether by disposition (ie. they were violent criminals who sought the protection of an army while they plundered when opportunity knocked) or were enslaved and had to be as above to survive. In the past I used to romantise the solders much more but after reading the histories, the tragedies suffered by populations as armies passed through is so striking that the soldiers don't come out better than their leaders except for the tragic element their poverty lends to their lives.

Am I too harsh? Is it too much the view of someone from the 'new world' of the bourgeoisie whose ancestors left the umbrella of the aristocrats? How do you view the rulers of this era? And the soldiers? Have your views changed over the years (what did you think when you were younger)?

Podporuchik HarryInkski,
Lithuanian Uhlans
14th Brigade, IV Cav Corps,
2nd Army of the West


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