Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)

The Rhine Tavern

*   NWC   NWC Staff   NWC Rules   NWC (DoR) Records   About Us   Send Email Inquiry to NWC

*   La Grande Armée Quartier Général    La Grande Armée Officer Records    Join La Grande Armée

*   Allied Coalition   Allied Officers   Join Coalition

*   Coalition Armies:   Austro-Prussian-Swedish Army   Anglo Allied Army (AAA)   Imperial Russian Army

 

Forums:    ACWGC    CCC     Home:    ACWGC    CCC
It is currently Fri May 09, 2025 12:05 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 6:46 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2005 4:46 pm
Posts: 449
Location: Malta
I felt the purpose of the book is not to describe and analyse the historical events but to communicate a very specific picture to people with low-to-none knowledge on Napoleonic wars. To some one who has a decent amount of knowledge [and I am not talking about Wikipedia here] Zamoysky’s anti-Russian agenda is hearting the eyes.

He consistently highlights French achievements using very fancy words [“brilliant chargeâ€


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 9:25 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 9:01 am
Posts: 1411
Location: USA
I have not read that book but for a well balanced English language read aboot Borodino you might try <u>THE BATTLE OF BORODINO,: Napoleon Against Kutuzov</u> by Alexander Mikaberidze. Although told from the Russian point of view I think the book is very fair to both sides without the histrionics and emotionalism that many authors have shown in writing about Borodino.

Lieutenant General
Ed Blackburn
Commanding Second Div, II Corps, AAA
3rd Bn / 1st Regiment of Foot Guards
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:16 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 12:32 am
Posts: 908
Location: Moscow, Russia
Alexey,

it happens all the time, when documents from one of the sides are ignored. Even worse is when those documents of both sides are, but they are substituted with "fairy tales" of one side "charging valiantly" and conducting "feats of bravery" while the other is "running in horror".

For you, who have #1092; luxury of Russian language#1073; I could recommend a very good book by Lidia Ivchenko. I couldn't get a feel of what happened at Borodino and most importantly why did it happen exactly this way for many years. The book was convincing for me.
http://www.ozon.ru/context/detail/id/4628011/

BTW I noticed that the more people talk about bravery the less useful info contains the text. It's true for memoirs of all the ages. People may say that this particular man was very brave. But they very rarely do write about it concerning particular events. Typically they will write that "I unlimbered a gun there and there" and since the fire was deadly it was hit soon. Or "I stood with the squadron to the right of the road" and that the squadron suffered from gunfire. But it was not as severe as in the adjacent squadron commanded by X. This X was a dumb idiot and put it it the worst point possible. People would recall miriads of thing from their breeakfest to their feelings when someone close was hurt/killed. But hardly ever will they write about bravery. On the contrary people who have nothing to do with events always use this word.

<center>Image</center>
<center><b>Eyo Imperatorskogo Velichestva Leib-Kirassirskogo polku
General-Adjutant Anton Valeryevich Kosyanenko
Commander of the Second Army of the West </b></center>


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 4:49 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 4:11 pm
Posts: 1765
Location: New Zealand
Anti Russian sentiment from a Pole? why an earth would that happen?
That said you guys are a bit paranoid at times. [:D]

I have read this book and like most history it is biaised to some degree. I actually thought it was a reasonable book but it was a while ago since I read it so I might have to get it off the shelf and take on board the comments here.

I have to agree that Kutusov whilst no Napoleon certainly was no fool either. Many accounts portray him that way as a residue of his famous knap in 1805 on the eve of Austerlitz. An unfair judgement I think as his sleeping was a reflection of his frustration that Alexander had left him out of the decision process in favour of Weyrother and his other inner circle advisors. With historic results.

One question; did Kutusov actively command the Russian army at Borodino do you think? Or was it his subordinates? It may be the Zamoyski account that portrays him as a drunk pretty much I can't recall. I would welcome a Russian perspective on his conduct in this battle.



General de Brigade Knox
Grand Duc d'Austerlitz et Comte de Argentan

Image

Escadron Mamelouks
Chasseurs a'Cheval
Division de Cavalerie la Vieille Garde.

Image



CO. 1er Brigade, II Heavy Cavalry Division, Reserve Cavalry.
http://www.aspire.co.nz/colinknoxnwc.htm


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:56 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 12:32 am
Posts: 908
Location: Moscow, Russia
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Colin Knox</i>
<br />
One question; did Kutusov actively command the Russian army at Borodino do you think?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Judge yourself. 2nd and 4th corpses were redeployed from their initial position between Borodino and Moskwa river to respectively Semenovskoe and the southern flank of the Raevski battery (the Grand Battery, the Grabd Redoubt). This redeployment had left the right flank absolutely clean of forces. Only Kutuzov and Bennigsen had enough authority to conduct such a maneuver.

Two more examples on smaller scale:

Until the 2nd corps arrived the left flank around Semenovskoe needed to be reinforced. It was partially done by Bagration himself by stripping 3rd division off the Old Smolensk road and by Kutuzov by sending half of the Guard infantry into fight - Izmailov, Lithuanian and Finland regiments. Barclay was strongly opposed to this action, it is clear that the order for these regiments to join in was given directly by Kutuzov.

A cavalry raid on the enemy left flank was conducted by combined 1st cavalry and cossacks corps. It appears the idea was proposed by Toll, but the order was given by Kutuzov.

For me it's a clear indication of Kutuzovs active role in the course of battle. For comparison Bennigsen at Eylau and Karl at Wgram were much more passive.

<center>Image</center>
<center><b>Eyo Imperatorskogo Velichestva Leib-Kirassirskogo polku
General-Adjutant Anton Valeryevich Kosyanenko
Commander of the Second Army of the West </b></center>


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2005 4:46 pm
Posts: 449
Location: Malta
@Ed,
Yes, I heard that Mikabidze vision is balanced – I placed an order on Amazon about a week ago and waiting for it to arrive.


@Anton,
I have a few of Ivchenko’s articles and will try by best to get the book (hopefully they do deliveries to NZ).

In fact there are a few articles on official Borodino state museum website (borodino.ru -you have to register to get them) which appear to be a criticism of her position – and by reading through about 5 articles I am lost, as the discussion appears to be a maze of arguments and counterarguments.

I guess once I get the book her position will be clearer to me.

As for Zamosky I was amazed by the reaction more than by the book itself. There are dozens of maximum positive reviews form people who DO seem to have knowledge on Nwars. Casual readers of course even more excited, while various publishing / mediaq responded by a wave of joy.

“A brilliant piece of narrative history…â€


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:59 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2001 8:49 am
Posts: 1072
Location: USA
Colin,

in regards to Kutusoz and drinking, the entire British Army spent most of the 18th and 18th century fighting under the influence and did not do too bad! But seroiusly, I think in history drinking is a convenient way for contemporaries to disparage their rivals. The American Civil War is rife with this... And, of course, I have met a few functional alcoholics who drink all day and manage to get by, so even if Kutusov had a bit to drink, we should not automatically think it impaired his judgement.

Feldmarschall Jim 'Prinz' Pfluecke
Commander, Austrian Cavalry Reserve
3 Graf O'Reilly Chevauxleger Rgt
Hahn Grenadier Bn


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:41 am 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Jim Pfleck</i>
I think in history drinking is a convenient way for contemporaries to disparage their rivals. The American Civil War is rife with this...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Of course, in mid-19th century America, where drinking was widely considered tantamount to morale degradation and loss of control, this accusation was particularly potent, so practically any general who somehow failed to perform in the eyes of the public automatically became a drunkard. I don't think that was true to the same degree in the early 1800s in Europe where taking strong drinks was the norm rather than the exception.

As for Zamoyski's book on 1812, I read it about five years ago and I enjoyed it. The ordeal of the retreat from Moscow hasn't come alive to me in a similar way in any other book on that campaign that I've read. It's not an operational history of the campaign by any means, but then I didn't read it as that. (And btw, most of those I've read since then are badly biased in their own way. We had a discussion on that a few years ago on this board, as I recall. Mercifully I don't recall the details. [;)])

<center>
[url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_walter/NWC/2nd_Dragoons.htm"]Image[/url]
Maj. Gen. D.S. "Green Horse" Walter
~ 2nd Dragoons (Royal Scots Greys) ~
2nd (Union) Brigade, Cavalry Division, Anglo-Allied II Corps
----------
~ 3rd (Prince of Wales's) Dragoon Guards ~
[url="http://home.scarlet.be/~tsh40803/AAA/BritGuardHorse.html"]Image[/url]
</center>


Top
  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:17 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 12:32 am
Posts: 908
Location: Moscow, Russia
Alexey,

take one more look at the review you posted. For a man who knows for sure that Napoleon, the Greatest Warrior ever, was defeated only by General Frost. Of course there were Russians around but they were drunk, dumb and suppressed by KGB. This our man once heard about the battle of Borodino. But he has no idea was it in this campaign and whether it has anything to do with Napoleon. Probably it would be one more Great Victory for Him but for the Frost, but he [reader, not Napoleon] is not sure about that. This our hero knows that there were Tzars in Russia at a time. But he is surprised to find out that these totalitarian Tzars had names and the name of one in question was Alexander. Even more those Tzars had character! Can you imagine that?! It's main features, no doubt, were dumbness, fearfulness and addiction to alcohol. For such a man precisely described in the review any 550+ page long work, with introduction, conclusion and main body divided into chapters (that is my favorite place!!!) would be a revelation. I didn't read the book itself. I do not know what is under its cover. Here I'm talking only about the review by Dave Roy. Apparently the author of the review is one of those men described (take a look at his "self portrait"). The question is why people find it possible to write anything about the theme they have no idea of? After all the book is 704 pages long (I know it was 550+ the previous one, but the figures are from the text and after all 704 may be considered to be 550+) and only a person interested in a theme will endevour to read it. Why this "expert opinion" is needed? And why are people not ashamed to look simply dumb? I cried over every single paragraph! None of them was disappointing! The problem is universal. I recall a great rebuff given to those "experts" by Bogomolov http://militera.lib.ru/prose/russian/bogomolov/17.html (in Russian).

<center>Image</center>
<center><b>Eyo Imperatorskogo Velichestva Leib-Kirassirskogo polku
General-Adjutant Anton Valeryevich Kosyanenko
Commander of the Second Army of the West </b></center>


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:53 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2005 4:46 pm
Posts: 449
Location: Malta
Anton,
Thanks for the article - its in my favourites now. The last paragraph is especially solid.

However apart from "experts" who did not have a right to review a history book there is a group, including Zamosky himself. Who actually DO know what they are talking about.

Look at this reviewer from Amazon:

Kevin F. Kiley's profile

<i>I am a retired Marine Corps artillery officer and a graduate of the United States Military Academy, West Point. I presently teach Middle School US History and am the author of Artillery of the Napoleonic Wars, Once There Were Titans: Napoleon's Generals and Their Battles 1800-1815, and have contributed chapters to Cold War Hot and Dixie Victorious. I have a book on uniforms of the American Revolution coming out this fall and am working on a book on the Battle of Guilford Courthouse and one on the uniforms of the 19th century.

“The Russian campaign is definitely the most difficult to write about. In this volume, the author presents a highly readable account of that great campaign that is an valuable addition to the literature of the campaign, but it isn't a stand-alone account of the Russian campaign, and it isn't without its flaws.

Overall, the author has demonstrated a more-than-adequate grasp of the poltical problems facing the belligerents in 1812. The causes of the war are evenly handled, and the sole blame is not laid at the door of the French, or at Napoleon's. That being said, the author has not painted an accurate picture of either Napoleon or Alexander. Napoleon's character is relegated to the 'traditional' view of him being driven 'by a lust for power and domination over others' as well, among other things 'having no sense of justice' (which is a gratuitous and ludicrous statement, Napoleon formulating and giving France and the Empire the Code Napoleon among other civil reforms). It is only recently that an accurate picture of Napoleon's character has been developed by historians and it is a shame that work wasn't taken advantage of here.

On the other hand it appears that Alexander is given the benefit of the doubt at almost every turn, even though he was a particide, an Asian autocrat, who wielded his unquestioned power in Russia, was a treacherous ally, and one who refused to support the alliance he made with Napoleon in 1807. He was slippery, double-dealing, and a coward who deftly used intrigue, deception, and treason to his benefit. He tried to be a soldier, and was not, interfering rather than helping his generals in the field. His chosen advisors, his 'aides-de-camp' were carpet knights and not soldiers, who helped with this interference. He fought the Turks and the Swedes, as well as the French, and it is probably that his lauded stance of not negotiating with Napoleon in 1812 until there were no French on Russian soil was because he feared being assassinated by those same nobles that murdered his father.

There are other errors in the book. The author labels Tilsit a triumph for the Tsar, whcih is a fantastically inaccurate statement; states that the battle of Aspern-Essling in 1809 were 'twin battles' when they were not (it was one action, which the Austrians won-the first battlefield victory over Napoleon since 1796-it is known as Aspern to the Austrians and Essling to the French, hence the hyphenated use of both names by many historians); and War and Peace is mentioned as a quasi-reference for the period, which is a gross error.

The author inaccurately states that the Russian artillery arm was probably the best in the world in 1812, which cannot be supported by any substantive reference. The French artillery arm had been recognized as Europe's best since 1789 and it had not been eclipsed by any other European artillery system since. The Austrian and British artillery arms were also superior to the Russian artillery. The Russian artillery officers were poorly trained and educated, and the 'new' equipment of the 1805 System were copies of Prussian and Austrian material from the 1740s and 1750s. Further, the manner in which Russian artillery was commanded and employed was inferior to French artillery doctrine and this was remarked upon by various Russian artillerymen, notably Yermelov, Sievers, and Kutusaiv.

The author also stated that the French transport corps was 'le train.' Actually, there were at least two different types of 'train' in the French service. The train des equipages (supply train) is the organization to which he is referring. There was also a train d'artillerie which was responsible for hauling the artillery equipment. there was also a smaller engineer train to boot.

While some of the military sections of the book are substandard and carelessly done, the overall impact of the volume is a credit to the author. While many other authors and historians have misinterpreted or left out key factors of the campaign, this author does not. He correctly labels the Russian generals and high command for what it is-in short a mess. Further, the Battle of the Berezina is analysed correctly in that it was a decisive victory for the French. Further, the crucial Battle of Maloyaroslavets is labeled a French victory. The issue with the most impact, however, is that the author correctly states the heavy losses the Russians incurred during the campaign which many overlook, focusing on the disaster that befell the Grande Armee. Russian losses, for the same causes, the cold and exposure, are clearly brought to the forefront of the narrative.

If used with caution in the areas outlined above this is an excellent narrative of the Russian campaign. It is highly recommended and should be on everyone's bookshelf who is interested in the Napoleonic period in general and the Russian campaign in particular. I am looking very much forward to the author's next effort.â€


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 6:20 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 12:32 am
Posts: 908
Location: Moscow, Russia
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Kiley makes things up
Review by David Hollins

I should declare an interest forst. Since writing the Osprey on Marengo, I have been on the receiving end of a rather bizarre Internet campaign by Kiley in which he questions my sourcing - well, I used the original material in all my 7 Ospreys and various mag articles and contributions to the ABC-CLIO Encyclopedia. Kiley prefers secondary material - mainly because he cannot read any language except English and only wants to read what suits his agenda - summarised in the last sentence of his book as Gribeauval was the great innovator (Yanks love G as his guns were used in the siege of Yorktown in 1781). Sadly, it is not true as Kiley would have realised had he actually read the material he lists in his book. Many of the innovations he claims for G were actually already in service elsewhere! So desperate does he become that he makes up a half page about the famous 1762 report - I have actually read it in Hennebert's biog of G and it is a Q&A on the Austrian guns. Kiley continues to copy bits of English-language books, which relate to earlier periods to "show" how out-of-date everyone else was, rather ignoring the YrXI system, which Nap himself introduced to replace G's guns. Look at the YrXI and you will see "Lichtenstein's Austrian designs" running through them.

In short, this is a secondary potboiler with pieces made up and referenced sources actually unused. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Hope this helps 0:-)

<center>Image</center>
<center><b>Eyo Imperatorskogo Velichestva Leib-Kirassirskogo polku
General-Adjutant Anton Valeryevich Kosyanenko
Commander of the Second Army of the West </b></center>


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 9:50 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2005 4:46 pm
Posts: 449
Location: Malta
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Kosyanenko</i>
<br />Hope this helps 0:-)

<center><b>Eyo Imperatorskogo Velichestva Leib-Kirassirskogo polku
General-Adjutant Anton Valeryevich Kosyanenko
Commander of the Second Army of the West </b></center>

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

VERY [:D]

Major Alexey Tartyshev
Moscow Grenadiers Regiment
2nd Grenadier Division
8th Infantry Corps
2nd Army of the West (NWC)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 18 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
POWERED_BY
Localized by Maël Soucaze © 2010 phpBB.fr