Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)

We were discussing the effect of the relative troop morales between the French and Coalition Armies. The previous discussion has been copied here for reference. This first post may be a little hard to follow. I have actually never tried this before, so there is probably a better way to do it. Anyway, here goes......

clifton seeney
Post subject: Re: Allied officer looking for an opponent
Posted: July 20th, 2011, 7:48 pm
Joined: April 2nd, 2007, 7:34 am
Posts: 931
Location: USA

Sire these Allies love the 1815 were we are at a numeral inferior to their horde I thank any of the1805 or 1806 would be much better there' a short 1806 45 turns that would give us the numbers to wipe them off the map!

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Col Kliff Marbot
3/3 e Artillerie de Cheval
2nd Div I Corps LaGrande Armee


Vincent83
Post subject: Re: Allied officer looking for an opponent
Posted: July 20th, 2011, 8:27 pm
Joined: May 4th, 2010, 2:06 pm
Posts: 28
Location: USA

clifton seeney wrote:
Sire these Allies love the 1815 were we are at a numeral inferior to their horde I thank any of the1805 or 1806 would be much better there' a short 1806 45 turns that would give us the numbers to wipe them off the map!


I would take pleasure in defeating you in a multiplayer battle Colonel. However your good Marechal Bardon here won't be joining us as he already has too much on his plate for multiplayer. I have started a new thread for this and am waiting for more officers to step forward.

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Kapitein Vincent Maddis
Dutch-Belgian I Corps
1st Brigade, 7th militia Battalion


MCJones1810
Post subject: Re: Allied officer looking for an opponent
Posted: July 20th, 2011, 8:36 pm
Joined: April 2nd, 2010, 2:37 am
Posts: 297
Location: Georgia, USA

My Dear Colonel Marbot:

While it is true that your French forces are numerically inferior to our Coalition Armies in 1815 scenarios, I do find myself wondering why you fail to mention the fact that about 60-70% of the Allied forces are D and E morale, as opposed to the predominant French morale of B and C. This, of course, precludes the large number of French Guard having A to A++ morale and the significant advantage of the much superior French command strucuture and numerous leaders.

Am I to understand that a French officer would consider himself to be at a disadvantage unless he also enjoyed a parity of force with the Coalition Army as well, despite all of these other extremely significant advantages?

Have you ever personally commanded an army of D and E grade troops? It requires a great amount of skill to overcome all of the advantages enjoyed by the French armies in these game systems. I would assume that somewhere in your long career, you have. If not, I would recommend it to you. It will provide you with an entirely different perspective of the matter. I would, in fact, recommend it for all French officers as a useful tool to gain a deeper understanding of the forces of your opponent.

I must admit that I am not familiar with the particular scenario you referenced. I am aware, however, that there are numerous scenarios, most likely historical in nature, that are hideously unbalanced. Precisely the reason that I advocate one officer choosing the scenario to be played, while allowing the second officer to choose which side he wishes to play. This encourages the first officer to select the most balanced scenario he can find due to the certainty that he will be the one to suffer the consequences of unbalanced play. The relative ability of each officer engaged is also of paramount importance. Your good Marechal Bardon is a fine example of an officer that can play with a disadvantage and still emerge victorious. He is a paramount warrior indeed!

<Salute!>

I also see that our good Kapitein Maddis has bravely stepped forward to challenge you. I do so enjoy a good measure of bravery in a young officer! It is always refreshing to see.

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clifton seeney
Post subject: Re: Allied officer looking for an opponent
Posted: July 20th, 2011, 8:52 pm
Joined: April 2nd, 2007, 7:34 am
Posts: 931
Location: USA

Monsieur I have never seen the Old Guard beat any one in these games it's all about the numbers I have attack e and d's in the flank the rear surrounded them but 800 vs 300 0r 400 just wont stop them. Oui they run but a 800 man line and ten of them the Guard will run !

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Col Kliff Marbot
3/3 e Artillerie de Cheval
2nd Div I Corps LaGrande Armee

Dear Cliff:

I think that is my point. The D and E morale troops run and, when combined with the crappy Allied command structure, they are very slow to recover. Maintaining your defensive lines is critical for survival in these games. When units run, they create a void that must be filled. Perhaps you have the units in reserve on the first turn, so you plug the voids. Your line is necessarily thinner than you would like, but it does exist. Because your lines are thinner now, your opponent can gain better attack odds than he could the turn before, so he hits you again. Because the previous D and E morale troops just routed near some of your other troops, they caused them to become shaken and disordered. In the meantime, the French Guard, having a leader present for every other soldier they have on the field, have smartly reordered and are ready to attack again at full strength. Since the French have plenty of leaders, they make sure to commit one to each of the next melees, thereby gaining an additional 40% advantage. Why? Because the only Allied leader you have has been forced to withdraw from the front line to move to the rear in a desperate attempt to rally the previously fleeing D and E morale troops. The French attack and still more D and E morale troops run away while the ones that previously ran are still thinking about rejoining the fight in a couple of hours. In the meantime, they keep running just in case. Now you do not have the troops to plug the holes and the French Guard moves in with a vengence, easily surrounding the few scattered units you have left. The situation becomes far worse if you have agreed to play with the Isolation Rule On, because now your French opponent can quickly and efficiently dispatch a great many of your troops before the crappy Allied leadership can ever convince the first crappy D and E morale troops that ran away to return to the field. And with 800 men in a unit, you can lose control of your whole army in a very short period of time.

I know that you are a long standing, veteran player. Have you ever played the Allied side of the battle with D and E morale troops?

Anybody else want to weigh in here?

Yes Mark I must agree the allied rabble are indeed, well, a rabble. I would argue they should all be E grade and all French A grade resulting in only French victories.

But seriously I would say the 1815 scenarios favour the French in my opinion. Not all of them but the historical ones - yes.

That said I am happy to play allieds every now and again to show whining coalition officers it's not as hard as they think In the 1815 scenarios the allieds must find a way to

1. Mass
2. Attack

As regards those dreadful D and E grade troops. These units must be held in reserve for counter attacks only - putting them in the front line is only going to go one way. One must use them for attack not defense. Somewhat unhistorically as allieds I would therefore use my quality units in the front line.

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Marechal Knox

Prince d'Austerlitz et Comte d'Argentan
Ordre national de la Légion d'honneur

"What is history but a fable agreed upon"

As is most often the case, Colin, you and I are in agreement regarding the scenario balance and the proper use of the lower grade units. They should be used in the attack. They are not at all effective in defense. The difficulty lies in the fact that the D and E morale units literally do comprise 60-70% of the Prussian army and a significant percentage of the Anglo-Allied army.

I would maintain that properly using these units, coupled with their much inferior command structure, is substantially more difficult than commanding the excellent units available to the French. The only reason you can make the statement that "it's not as hard as they think" is because you are a superlative player. Under the command of a more average player, it really is "as hard as they think". You are able to accomplish things with troops that most other players cannot. You are a French Old Guardsman. It is an honor that you have certainly earned. You represent your command, and your army, very well. <Salute>

You have my very deepest respect, but I do still (foolishly perhaps) fully intend to honorably claim your sword one day. After all, I need something to trade you for my sword which you now hold captive.

Gentleman,

With all that said, I am still trying to understand what to do with all my horses. Calvary just confuses me. And as my wife says, I am confused enough already!

Yes, I would have to admit that our beloved Rat is totally mystified in all matters pertaining to a four legged, equine beast.

There is no better teacher that I have found than Colin in this regard. His cavalry runs over you, withdraws, reorders, runs over you again, withdraws, reorders, runs over you again....well, you get the picture. Try as you might to kill his blasted horsemen, it is very hard to do when your soldiers are lying dead upon the field.

Colin, if you, or anyone else who is so inclined, would like to provide a brief tactical overview here of the general use of cavalry, I am sure it would be beneficial to many of the younger officers in the club. As for me, well I think I certainly grasped the concept in our last engagement. I still relive the carnage in my mind and have trouble sleeping at night without the assistance of powerful drugs. I cannot seem to redirect my brain from the recurring phrase, "Form Square! Form Square!! Form Square!!!..........Too Late."

BTW - Hope you are over that nasty flu and are feeling better now!

The keys to effective cavalry use are actually all historical as per for example Murat would do:

1. Massed use no penny packets commit numbers and hard
2. Select the right ground for them.
3. Think about how you will exctract them once they have completed the charge
4. Do not over pursue keep zones of control overlapped
4. Hold forces in reserve to allow them to cover a withdrawal for reform
5. Have infantry and artillery handy to support them
6. Generally they are best employed on the flanks and less so in the centre (a big generalisation though)
7. Ensure all brigade, division and corp commanders can support them in reform
8. Lead with A grade or best units to reduce the chance of rout if he counters. A rout will stop your reform.
9. other secrets - limited to Pierre's at some point sorry rabble

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Marechal Knox

Prince d'Austerlitz et Comte d'Argentan
Ordre national de la Légion d'honneur

"What is history but a fable agreed upon"

And there you have it! A vast amount of knowledge in one missive. The only problem remaining is how to practically apply these magnificent concepts.

Now, if any of you Coalition officers have lost your password to Pierre's, just drop me an email and I will be sure to send it to you so you can view the rest of the story. I believe Colin posted these some time ago, so you will probably have to research some of the old postings.

(Just kidding guys. Don't send me any emails for the password to Pierre's. I really don't have it....well, not since they recently changed it anyway.)

Thanks Colin,

I have no problem with my pack of rats but those horses just give me fits. The rules are pretty straight forward, the application of them is what I need to improve on!

Thanks again!

I moved thsithread to allow all to par take but also to keep the Opponent Finder forum to it's intended use...

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Ooopps! Sorry, John. I thought I had already moved it over to the Rhine Tavern to get it in its proper place. Was it still in the Opponent Finder section?

That was certainly not my intent. Thanks for the fix.

Ah, yes, it brings back memories of the time I was trying to post Tactical Tips for the Austerlitz scenario in the Coalition Arms. I wound up posting them somewhere public as well, probably the Opponent Finder as I recall. It was interesting watching all of the French officers sneak over there and take a look at my tactical "secrets". They could not have learned much, after all, it was just the errant ramblings of a dowdy, Germanic mercenary.

Man, Generaal Moss had me pull two extra weeks of KP for that screw up! Well, at least I did get pretty good at peeling potatoes.

General Moss now that's a hard English nut to crack, I think I played him everyday for four years it was fun and interesting. We got to know many things about one another and that was the bigger the game the more chance the French could win though movement.

Mark ... ah, but Cliff soon WILL be commanding D morale French forces ...

About time too.

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Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, VP4LC, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.07)

True enough, Bill, but it is the E morale troops that are the most atrocious and Colonel Marbot will still have the refuge of the excellent French command system. Closer to the Allied situation by a small measure, but not the same. Only by actually commanding the Allied Armies as structured in 1815, can the French officers obtain a true understanding.

I would recommend this role reversal of armies to all officers on occasion to deepen their understanding of the relative advantages, and disadvantages, of their foe. Personally, I like to play both sides in a scenario when I can. It gives me a better perspective of the whole. A solid understanding of your opponent's situation increases your chances for future victories and breeds mutual respect between the officers of our club. Only by understanding the hardships your opponent must overcome, can you fully appreciate his efforts to do so.

Colin has posted some excellent tips in this thread that officers seeking to improve their play should embrace. I do realize that the difficultly lies much more in the application than the concept. That is where the leadership of the Unit Commanders in the armies come into play. I would urge all commanders, but particularly those of individual brigades, to pick up these concepts and teach them to the men in your command. Lead them in the improvement of thier play. By the same measure, the Senior Commanders in the armies should teach the application of these concepts to thier subordinate commanders.

General Cox, take heed, for if your French officers are not absorbing this message for use in our ongoing Brigade Challenge, you may be in for a rather rude shock when our armies converge. I assure you that my young Hanoverian officers are receiving the message and, admittedly within the vast limitations of their commanding officer, being taught the proper application of Colin's fine concepts.

Just use the slider bar to even things up.