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 Post subject: Command Control Rules
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:42 pm 
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I am going to be eventually finishing off all of my club games and going to play ONLY Command Control rules for all future games with the rare exception.

To promote the idea of these games I am going to play through an entire game as both sides in a Hotseat game and then post a website that shows how it works.

The Detached and Out of Command status of the leaders will play a huge role in how the units are moved. How formations respond to threats will be based on LOS, couriers (using a simple tracking sheet I create in Excel) and so on.

Online die rollers will be used to resolve certain historical events that can and DID happen such as lost orders, captured couriers, etc.

The turns will be slower but more accurate.

I will also be moving to a 450 Fatigue system using alternate versions of the scenarios. No longer will units fight all day. I playtested this method and it worked fine. The units fought for about 15-18 turns and then had to pull out or face rout. Max Fatigue at 450 worked fine. The Medium and High Fatigue levels never kick in but hey, at Low Fatiuge there was enough of a detriment as to discourage the players from leaving the unit in danger of mass artillery fire.

No need to adjust morale levels, commander ratings as the fatigue will keep the unit from fighting anyway.

Sheesh, I may even reduce it to 400! The concept worked and units were able to commit to melees long enough to make their presence felt and then had to rest.

But the idea here is that enough is enough. I am tired of a skirmisher spotting for an entire army and then seeing them pack up because he spots the army moving up a road.

And if I don't get games oh well. Scott will still keep me active and I will be playing the occasional game without the rules to stay more or less active if it comes down to that.

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Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, VP4LC, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.07)


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:51 pm 
I'd like to see how you implement the command rules and try out a game. The 450 max fatigue level basically enforces brigade activation rules, as you can no longer keep units in combat all day.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:02 am 
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I am looking forward to giving this a try

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Generallieutenant Walt GroßHerzog Moehle von Neuhardenberg
Kommandeur der Korps Artillerie-Brigade
Kommandeur der Gardegrenadier
Königlich Preußische Korps


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:14 am 
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I have the basic rules done. I just need to create some illustrations to show how it all works.

Response to enemy threat is one of the biggest areas of concern for most of us. The old "radio armed light cavalry" issue is dispensed with in this system.

Marching TO the threat - you will issue your force orders (you can combine several formations into a Force for ease of orders writing) and they will move on the position of the threat. If the threat has dissipated by that time too bad. You gave them the orders and they are carrying them out ... :wink:

Also an order from an army commander to a corps commander will supercede that of a threat from a near-neighbor. Thus if you order your troops to march but in two or three turns another threat materializes against a division (neighbor) and your cannot see the threat then your force will carry out its orders. If it does see the threat you will be able to decide how much of the force to leave behind but you must move at least 1/2 of the force (the best troops too) to carry out the orders.

Thus if you had a corps near a division and the corps was given orders to march south but a threat came up in the west against a neighboring division then you would be able to detach a division to help out but you would still have to march your BEST 1/2 of the corps to carry out the orders.

An optional rule would have you use an on roll die program to determine if the corps detached ANYTHING to help the neighboring division. The results and description of the die roll would be sent to your opponent with a code - FR-T23-DR1:

FR - French player
T23 - Turn 23
DR1 - Decision Role #1 for that turn.

The Allied player would keep the emails and at the end of the game the French player would show him his orders list (which is by turn of course). The DR1 tag would be listed by the order.

For example - on turn 18 your army commander sends down an order to the corps commander of the V Corps (Lannes) who is five turns of Command Radius from the Army CO. Thus there is a 5 turn delay in the orders. On turn 23 you receive the orders but on that turn a threat has materialized nearby - a "neighbor" division has been attacked. The die roll would be performed if the corps would leave any troops behind to help out. (note: the neighbor and the threat are out of LOS)

A more beligerant rule would be that even if the threat was visible the Corps CO may not leave anyone behind anyway. This would be in cases of a Corps CO that is someone like Bernadotte or Ney. And we could come up with a list of leaders that fits this description. May even have a matrix chart showing the personal animosity between the leaders as a whole with a green cell meaning they get along but a red cell saying that they are as mad as a pair of fighting roosters with each other.

Murat would fit this category with just about every other French CO! LOL

We also could use an impetuosity rating. Ney for instance rushed in fighting quite a bit. So did Murat. Davout was more cautious. Etc.

The players could create their own tables, etc.

All too often this stuff gets left out of the game and we forget that we are dealing with commanders that had jealousy and strife with each other. No, I was not thinking of duels - :mrgreen:

Anyway, more on this later.

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Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, VP4LC, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.07)


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:49 pm 
Bill,

So far you speak of french command deficiencies. Usually french Corps commanders got their orders in a more timely and decipherable manner than their Allied counterparts. The Corps organization made it possible for them to carry them out faster than the Allies who were changing their force structure from day to day.

Would the Austrian "Force" commanders be forced to drop off detachments and flank guards, etc as they historically did? Would delays be imposed on 1806 Prussian orders to simulate the interminable councils of war?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:17 pm 
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This is all optional of course. Players could decide on how they want to play.

Yes, the Allied format was pretty rigid. Have a planning meeting at midnight and send out the GENERAL orders for the entire day.

Austerlitz is a good example of Allied planning AND execution. Those columns that did not make it off of the plateau turned around and went over to the defense. Good example of "the die roll went their way for the orders."

(added by edit) Another example is Dresden where the Allied leaders and monarchs all deliberated right up until the 4pm cannon signal. By the time the shouts of "Vive le Emperor" were heard it was too late to call off the attack. In the game that kind of thing could be modeled as well.

Anyway, that part of the rules is optional. I think it would be fun if the players experimented with rules like that.

There were petty jealousies in the Allied camp too of course. The distrust of the German officers by the Russian officers in the Russian army. Tormassov leaving the army because he would have had to serve under Wittgenstein in 1813 is a good example of this.

Lots more for both sides. British army is a bit more rigid but still room for error. And WHAT staff system? Wellington basically riding personally to each point to make sure that things were "nice and tidy." The failure of the British to close off the retreat route of the French at Salamanca for instance ...

The older I get the less "hands on" and more "command control" I get. I really wish that the Command Control format in the game really worked well as I would use it for ALL of my battles.

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Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, VP4LC, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.07)


Last edited by Bill Peters on Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:20 pm 
Bill Peters wrote:
The distrust of the German officers by the Russian officers in the Russian army.


Hey, wait just a minute! :o :shock: :x

Sounds like Anton and I need to talk! Of course he distrusts me. I am locked inside the dang uncorfortable cuirass that Colin stuck on me while I was, well, a bit under the weather. I know it is a long way across the field, and that his vision will be obscured by the gunpowder smoke, but all I have to say is, "Don't shoot Anton, it's me!" :wink: :P :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:50 am 
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Very interesting, i'll follow this game.

best


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 12:22 pm 
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Are these just another set of house rules?

How would you enforce them when playing Fog-of-war?

Define best?

How would you stop me from instantly knowing what happened when one of my Cavalry scouts got meleed or ran into the enemy?

This sounds like a huge coding issue (except for the fatigue idea). And I regularly have troops fight at max fatigue. Just take the -2 to morale as a factor (makes line troops militia).

And this will do nothing about the small unit issue (Cavalry squadrons basically never feel fatigue because the die first - same with skirmishers)


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:18 pm 
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buffpilot wrote:
Are these just another set of house rules?

Yes. But not just ANOTHER as in those you rarely can use anything from the game as a help. The Detached and Out of Command highlighting all will help with this set of rules.

How would you enforce them when playing Fog-of-war?

Enforce? Sounds like Gestapo to me. I play people that I trust. I do not have to send Himmler to sit over their shoulder when they play their turn.

Define best?

I need to know what you were referring to. I am not about to go hunting through my post to try and figure out what you mean.

How would you stop me from instantly knowing what happened when one of my Cavalry scouts got meleed or ran into the enemy?

The point is not to "stop you" from knowing anything. The point is that the reaction to such would be limited to the units in your brigade (at first) and then those in neighboring units once the reaction distance was measured and then applied to neighbors. Pretty easy too. You just do not use radios to send troops crashing down the pike from 200 hexes away. Instead you use the command control range x how many turns.

This sounds like a huge coding issue (except for the fatigue idea). And I regularly have troops fight at max fatigue. Just take the -2 to morale as a factor (makes line troops militia).

No. Not for the game engine. And why are you fighting with units at max fatigue. They were done for and should be pulled out. As a matter of fact they pose more of a risk by routing and disordering other stacks too.

And this will do nothing about the small unit issue (Cavalry squadrons basically never feel fatigue because the die first - same with skirmishers)


What has this thread go to do with that? And this has nothing to do with the game engine which I will not discuss here anyway. It is about reaction times mainly. Also a few other things.

Look - you don't like the concept don't play it. Simple as that. Go on playing the game with "anything goes" and if you like that there are plenty of guys here that do the same.

But Warren Bajan is interested and frankly at this point if all I get is a group of four to five opponents that want to at least try it out that works for me. You keep the radios - I will try and play these games with a little more realism.

For what it is worth: if you play these rules you will find that the historical time lapses between combat will mean LESS and more HISTORICAL losses instead of the "mud wrasslin'" we see all the time in our games. LESS units involved instead of La Grande Armee piled into an area of something like 100 x 100.

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Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, VP4LC, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.07)


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:24 pm 
Bill Peters wrote:
...La Grande Armee piled into an area of something like 100 x 100.


Now that does sound familiar! :D :o :shock:

We used a courier system, written orders and an umpire to replicate Bill's theory in our miniatures campaigns. Much like Anton's previous proposal. It greatly changes the play. :wink:

A courier would be dispatched to the last known location of the unit to which his message was to be delivered. If the unit had moved, the courier would then be compelled to follow until he could overtake the unit. This delay often made the written order obsolete by the time it was received by the unit commander. There could be several couriers en route with different orders. This replicated D'Erlon's dilemma of June 16th very well.

All movement, couriers and units, was handled by the umpire on a master map. Only units that had become engaged were transferred to the tabletop and only the unit commanders that were present could see the battle. Unit commanders within a certain distance of the battle were told of the sound of battle coming from the proper direction. It was then left up to them to decide whether they would march to the guns, or continue to follow the written orders they had in hand.

It was, all in all, an excellent system, so long as you had a dedicated and competent umpire.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:31 pm 
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This system works as long as both players are:

1. Diligent.

2. Honest.

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Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, VP4LC, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.07)


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:48 pm 
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Why would I keep fatigued units in the line?

1) There is no point in pulling troops out of the line if there is only a few turns left. They can't get rested.

2) If the enemy is on the attack you will not get a chance to pull them out. Retreating is almost suicidal in HPS system unless you can rout into constricting terrain. Even with NME on.

3) Line infantry is a 4 morale. The -2 morale makes them equivalent of line militia. Militia is handled differently than better troops, but I don't see the Allies leaving their militia behind when the fight comes.

Lastly, there are a plethora of house rules around the club. I'm fine with that and this will just be another one. But you should have titled your post as "House Rules: Command and Control."

I like these games and enjoy playing them. But I don't really enjoy spending tons of time figuring out all the intricacies of house rules...

For the people who enjoy it - have fun!


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:09 pm 
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Just remember that this is not the normal case. Units have a much better chance of pulling out under this system. It is not "pile the Grand Armee up on turn 1 and hit the road."

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Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, VP4LC, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.07)


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:23 pm 
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What about adding a few say 4 or 5 depending on the scenario size ADC's/couriers ( a job for good old Phantom ? ) to both sides in the editor to those scenario's you plan to use. Would provide an orders delay consistent with game time and movement rates with terrain consideration as well as potential interception of orders and detours . Orders would be issued and then acted upon only when the courier physically arrives at his destination. We have used it in the past with a Civil War title and it works very well.

Regards
Walt

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Generallieutenant Walt GroßHerzog Moehle von Neuhardenberg
Kommandeur der Korps Artillerie-Brigade
Kommandeur der Gardegrenadier
Königlich Preußische Korps


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