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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:50 am 
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Gentlemen,
How much time I play games in NWC so much as well I hear arguments "pro" and "contra" House Rules owing to artificiality and imperfection of them. Moreover, those get various renditions for some subjective and objective causes usually.
I guess, the only Rules we have to use are: REALISM/or just common sense wherever the previous one is impossible to perform/ and HISTORICITY based on our knowledge of the subject. Each of us is an enthusiastic scholar of the Napoleonic epoch, and each of us has a right to expect those above from our opponents and their actions. Let us to repose on that.
If we'll go this way, we get definition with many "greasy" matters such as:

I. Troops in Marching Order

An HPS game hex symbolizes the roadway length of 100m.
According to the regulations, each man occupied 0.5m in the rank and 0.3 in the file, each horse occupied 1m in the rank and 2m in the file, a gun carriage with limber and team occupied 18m, and an ammunition wagon with its team occupied 15m of road length, approximately. In my calculations, I take into consideration all intervals between any parts of March or Battle order.

1. Infantry.
During road/street marches, Infantry formed a column by section (3 ranks, 6 files) or double-section (3 ranks, 12 files), if the road/street is wide enough (6m at least).
Maximal possible number in one hex: on a byroad - up to 450 men, on turnpike - up to 860 men.

2. Cavalry.
They usually formed a column of four/three/two files moving by double ranks, they also could make the files double on a wide roadway.
Maximal possible number in one hex are: on a byroad up to 100 horses, on turnpike up to 200 horses.

3. Artillery.
They formed a company column one-by-one with all guns plus limbers at the front, followed by other battery vehicles: ammunition caissons (of 1st, 2nd, 3rd Line) and equipment; where roads allowed, a double column was used, but guns always grouped together at the front.
The maximal possible number in one hex is: a single column of 8-guns battery with 1st Line Caissons (at least) up to 260m, a column of 6-guns battery up to 200m. So, we must to leave two empty hexes after each 8-guns battery symbol and one empty hex after each 6-guns battery symbol on byroads, and one empty hex after each 8-guns battery symbol on turnpikes.

Infantry and cavalry units in Marching Order must not make any stacks on their roadway. Exceptions: 1Btn/or Sqn+1Battery; 1Btn/or Sqn+1Train.

Cavalry must make marching, maneuvering and fighting ONLY by squadrons and not by one regiment symbol.
Brigade / Divisional Leader must to head any marching, maneuvering or attacking moves of the main body of his troops at the beginning of the moves, at least.

This way could help us to perform realism of the situation, to make corrections in the game space and time because in the reality any loss of intervals between the marching units could make a state of chaos, order and time loosing. It was inadmissible. That's why the special Staff - or Quartermaster - officers and Guides kept track of the marching order and inter-units space on roads. It was only permitted when Btn/Sqn let a battery or train to pass throughout their marching order, and they used waysides in this case.

II. Maximal hex capacity.

An HPS game hex symbolizes the ground area of 100mX100m.
So, how many Inf, Cav or Art could stack in that room on the real Napoleonic battlefields? The principled question. Therefore, I have researched it very closely. I've looked into my copies of the French, Russian, Austrian regulations, memoirs etc., and this is my conclusion:
According to the regulations, each man occupied 0.5m in the rank and 0.3 in the file, each horse occupied 1m in the rank and 2m in the file.
Platoons within one battalion or squadron had to contain an equal number of files, and it was permissible to transfer men from one company to another in order to make all platoons equal. Only elite companies were excepted from this rule.
Between 1805 and 1815, it was still typical to form troops in two or even three lines at a distance of 200 - 300m.
Battalions, squadrons and batteries for the second line must be deployed at the minimal distance of 2 hexes (in the third one) from the first line.
Any Infantry, Cavalry, Artillery unit which has lost 50% of their strength was supposed to leave the battle line.

1. Infantry.
There were four main battle orders at the Napoleonic Wars: the three-rank Line, Opened or Closed Battalion Column, Battalion Square and Skirmish Order.
a) Line Order was using for the defense predominantly.
Maximal possible number of troops in Line per one hex is 1Btn up to 600 men. If you need to deploy in line a battalion with more than 600 men, you may do it only next to a smaller battalion or next to an empty hex. In a village or town, the line may be deployed only in hexes with a single building or along-street.
b) Opened Battalion Column with full interval (the distance between its parts was equal to the frontage of a platoon) or half-interval (the distance between its parts was equal to a half of the frontage of a platoon), was to be used to march infantry through defiles, over the battlefield in the presence of an enemy, to move one line through another ("passage de lines"). Opened Battalion Columns had the pretty wide intervals - 20m between each other, and 50m - between two brigades. The intervals were used by cavalry and artillery for their maneuvering.
Maximal possible number of troops in Opened Columns per one hex is 2 Btns up to 1,700 men.
c) Closed Battalion Column (the Battalion Mass - the Austrian variant) / or Attack Column had to have the minimal intervals of 3m between its successive parts, they were to march to attack with bayonets.
Maximal possible number of troops per one hex in Closed Columns is 4 Btns up to 3,500 men.
But those battalions must be of the same regiment because any attack with closed columns had resulted in great disordering and interfusing of all partakers. After the attack, men were supposed to retrieve their company or battalion at least.
d) Battalion Square could have 3 or 6- rank deep formation.
Maximal number of troops in Square per one hex is 1 Btn up to 800 men.
e) Skirmish Order.
Light Infantry Skirmishers: when in the skirmish order, the men were to act in pairs/files; an interval between two men in a pair was to be 1m, the interval between two pairs was to be 2-5m in the "thick chain" and 5-10m in the "double chain"; in case of the second variant, there was an interval of 50-60m between the first and the second chain. A whole battalion or regiment could be formed in skirmisher order, in this case one company / battalion on each flank remained in reserve in closed order. Men were usually sent to "tirailleurs" by platoons or companies, which relieved each other in turn.
Light Infantry Skirmishers detached from a battalion were to form a single chain: the Frenchmen up to 200m, the Russians and Austrians up to 300m, the Prussians and British up to 150m forward of the main line, according to their regulations. Supports in closed orders were to be placed up to 100m behind the skirmisher line. The maximal possible number of Light Infantry Skirmishers per one hex is 100 men in the "thick chain".
Line Infantry Battalion Skirmishers: the French Voltijeur company, the British Light company, the Austrian Schutzen Zugs, the Prussian skirmish platoons of the Third Rank, the Russian Strelki platoon and selected 10-12 men from the third ranks of each platoon could be deployed for skirmisher screening of the battalion. They were to fight in groups of 3 men, not in pairs; the interval between the groups was 5-10m.
Line Infantry Skirmishers detached from a battalion were to form a single chain at a distance of up to 100m forward of their battalion. The maximal possible number of Line Infantry Skirmishers per one hex is 60 men.

2. Cavalry.
There were two main battle orders for a regiment at the Napoleonic Wars: two-rank Line, Opened or Closed Squadron Column.
a) Line order / or Battle order / or Charge order was using for charges as a rule. I don't know why, but HPS games have an option Line Order only for Infantry. This is a big mistake because Line was the main attack order for Cavalry all time. Any column formation has very weak and vulnerable point - its unprotected flanks.
Maximal number of troops in Line Order per one hex is 1-2 Sqns up to 200 horses total.
b) Columns.
Opened Column by Platoons / En colonne par pelotons . March order in column by platoons for the DEFILE and broken terrain movement.
Maximal number of troops in Columns by Platoons per one hex is 1-2 Sqns up to 200 horses total.
Opened Column by Companies / En colonne par divisions. March order in column by companies for the broken terrain movement.
Maximal number of troops in Columns by Companies per one hex is 1-3 Sqns up to 300 horses total.
Closed Column by Squadrons / En colonne serre. March order in column by closed squadrons for movements over the battlefield in the presence of an enemy. Closed columns also could be used for to charge on infantry.
Maximal number of troops in Closed Columns per one hex is 1-4 Sqns up to 800 horses total. Squadrons in all kind of the columns must be of the same regiment.
All squadrons for the second line must be deployed at the minimal distance of 2 hexes (in the third one) from the first line.

3. Artillery.
In opened position: intervals between cannons supposed to be 10m - 15m (some sources give 12m - 20m); in closed/fortified position: 6m-8m. Why intervals were so huge? Gun limbers should have space for speedy maneuvering between and around cannons. Also we have to consider the width of space that occupied each gun carriage on the position: 3m - 4m. Their limbers were placed at a distance of 20m behind the pieces, 1st Line caissons of Light pieces were to be placed at 20-30m behind the limbers one per one gun, and 1st Line caissons of Heavy pieces, which had no ammunition boxes in limbers, 10m behind the limbers. The rest of caissons - 2nd and 3rd Line - were placed at 50-100 up to 300m behind a battery.
Maximal quantity of guns per one hex is 8 pieces. Batteries never positioned in two rows.

III. Infantry versus cavalry.

Whatever infantry unit must not bring themselves straightway (!) to whatever enemy cavalry unit closer than maximal fire range. No exceptions. If only that cavalry unit persists and does not give up ground in NEXT TURN, then the infantry unit may attack them, it's up to the unit commander.
This way could help us to perform realism of the situation because in reality any cavalry unit, that even (and especially(!)) get disordered, routed or less than 200 men, could not let enemy to come up straightway and attack them with fire, but the cavalry could leave and easily outclass the enemy infantry by using its vantage of speed and maneuverability; moreover, this method could help us to perform realism of so-called “Appel signal” situation, when (in reality - after any charge) all cavalry units that have performed a charge, by order of the trumpet signal "Appel'!" was suppose to leave a zone of fire and rally around their standards. Our cavalry also must have that chance in the next turn after a charge. This is realistic and historically approved.
We have just to do what could happen in reality, and don't do what couldn't.

Is it complicated for you, gentlemen?
Je vois que je vous fais peur.
But as the Napoleonic scholars, we're familiar with all those matters, or have imagination at least.
And ultimately, Realism and Historicity "...uber all ist!" If not, let's play something another. It’s "Diablo II"- for example. There is a lot of shooting and horrors. Cool! 8) :twisted:

"Je leur ai montre le chemin de la gloire..." (Napoleon) :D

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:53 am 
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Interesting... Thinking about the max capacity in an hexagon for cavalry, for you up to 200 max on road but 800 otherwise, is it as well for a cavalry charge?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:08 pm 
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Playing H and R to omi is far better !


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:59 pm 
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Hi Vladimir
I recall you guys produced a pdf summarising all of the changes for your H and R scenarios could you email me a copy I seem to have misplaced it?

colin at aspire dot co dot nz

Let me know if you have this. I am interested in looking at it again. Also what scenarios do you have setup on it now?

regards

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:23 pm 
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Am playing three 1805 1812 and 1813 The French are bad( bon) taking names and kicking butt. Tu Armes


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:32 pm 
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Cancel that I found the website! But does anyone have Austerlitz as a zip as oppossed to .rar file

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:40 am 
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Colin Knox wrote:
Cancel that I found the website! But does anyone have Austerlitz as a zip as oppossed to .rar file


Colin,

the file is sent.

Honestly, I can't understand the problems you, guys, have with .rar files. In fact it's a really challenging task nowadays to find a programme that would work with .zip and would not work with .rar. :roll:

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:53 am 
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davidguegan wrote:
Interesting... Thinking about the max capacity in an hexagon for cavalry, for you up to 200 max on road but 800 otherwise, is it as well for a cavalry charge?


Do not get confused. What Vladimir is writing about is a set of HOUSE RULES to be used with STOCK scenarios in order to make the course and outcome of the battle close to what we, and Vladimir the most intensively, suppose to be historical fact.

I played a scenario under these rules. To be honest it was not very fun. Well, yes it was of course, in a sense that the field of battle suddenly became far too small for all these units deployed. The army "felt" very much different from what we are used to. But it was very difficult to follow all of the rules. Leave alone the fact that you can't control that your opponent does that out of your LOS. With both players very eager to follow them it was only by about turn 10 that we managed not to violate it a dozen of times per turn.

Why am I writing all this? Because in specially created H&R scenarios 9/10 of these house rules are not needed at all. Actually the guys advocate the play without any house rules at all. For me it's also a bit too much. But scenarios do allow that. And then it's up to the players to decide what rules to use.

To your question. In a stock scenario it's possible to "fit" into a hex about 900 cavalrymen. We already discussed that one rank with length 100 m will include somewhat more than 100 men. Roughly 250 men in two ranks. These are the only cavalrymen who are able to effectively take part in a charge. In order to deal with numerous technical problems that arise when you try to approximate continous "nature" with a discrete "model" we have set this capacity to 300 men AND 2 SQUADRONS. With squadron size depending on the unit type. It means that you'd be able to stack at max 180 cossacks, 230 hussars/uhlans, 260 dragoons and 300 cuirassiers/heavy guards. This greatly diversifies the cavalry available and has a tremendous impact on the gameplay.

In stock scenarios all this is impossible. The rule of thumb is not to stack more than 300 into a hex and not to stack more than one squadron on a road/pike. This 300 men limit is also applied to melees. It means that you must not attack a hex with say 450 cavalrymen. As I said such rules are extremely difficult to follow.

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2nd Grenadiers Division, Russian Contingent


Last edited by Kosyanenko on Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:51 am 
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What I like about these H&R games without rules you just can't run up on a cannon and come away scott free even if you charge with 500 men. Now lets be real in HP game I seen it time and a gain they will attack nothing but Art not even Horse Art is save on the Hp game battles it just generation Kill dogg. If I ordered a sq in the time I was in service to run up on a mgp I get hell no dogg send in some shells ! But luck had it a was a Med Corps setting in Portsmouth naval Hop then the SAF NOB.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:20 am 
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Gentlemen,
Just to avoid confusion in your ranks - the House rules Vladimir is referring to are not related to H&R scenarios found here:
http://www.nwc.albom55.ru/hrp/#

Ultimately, the house rules Vladimir referring to as R&H have the same purpose as the Mod called H&R (http://www.nwc.albom55.ru/hrp/#) - that is to increase realism and to force players to follow historical tactics of Napoleonic wars.

However this is achieved through different means:
R&H uses house rules as per the first post of this topic.
H&R uses scenarios with modified PDT, OOB and SCN files.

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(I don't play with with ZOC kills and Rout limiting ON)


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:59 pm 
... T squared times pie divided by the number of angels dancing on the head of a pin minus...

Man its tough being a Russian. Where wuz I? Oh yeah...

...T squared times pie... hey where's my pie!?! Okay who ate my pie!?! Not funny guys!!! :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:46 pm 
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Specifically what games have been modifed ? or is it limited just to Austerlitz?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:03 pm 
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EaglesFly wrote:
Specifically what games have been modifed ? or is it limited just to Austerlitz?


There is one scenario from Eckmuhl:
- H&R 1.03 1809 Abensberg

Four from Austerlitz:
- H&R 1.03 1805 Amstettin
- H&R 1.03 1805 Austerlitz
- H&R 1.03 1805 Ulm
- H&R 1.03 1812 Borodino

Two more scenarious for Leipzig are work in progress

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Leib-Guard Preobrazhensky Regiment (Grenadier Drum)
1st Brigade
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5th Guard Corps


(I don't play with with ZOC kills and Rout limiting ON)


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 7:35 am 
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[quote="Colin Knox"]Cancel that I found the website! But does anyone have Austerlitz as a zip as oppossed to .rar file[/quote]

Try the FREE UNzipper. 7- zip. It handles ALL types of ZIPPING, includng RAR files, with ease.

http://www.7-zip.org/

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:47 am 
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Hi guys, how do you feel about Cossacks having charge ability. A lot of my French friends do not feel they should have it (except vs. skirmishers), claiming it to not be historical.

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