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 Post subject: The State of Our Club
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:43 pm 
What just happened?

I am sure that is the question that all of you are now asking. You have heard the version presented to you by Chuck and Paco. I must admit that it was provocative to say the least and very well choreographed in its release. It was also a personal attack which is, in my opinion, conduct unbecoming the senior officers of our club. To say that it was an embellishment of the actual facts in this matter would be a gross understatement. The matter in question never involved any attempt to abrogate the authority of an Army Commander in this club. The matter involved an attempt by an Army Commander to dictate to our Cabinet what would be executed upon his verbal demand in an area clearly lying within that Cabinet’s authority and fully outside of the influence of any individual army of our club.

I want to be absolutely clear that neither I, nor any member of this Club’s Cabinet, ever “questioned the reason for the individual’s discharge from the LGA or implied a right to reverse” Chuck’s decision as the LGA Army Commander to expel the officer from his army. Such a decision clearly lies within the authority of an Army Commander to make pertaining to the officers under his command. What I first, and the Cabinet subsequently in our discussion and vote, did not support was Chuck’s demand that posts that we deemed as beneficial to the general membership of our club be summarily deleted from the Club’s forums. Chuck has classified these posts as “offending”. The posts in question are the ones pertaining to the graphics mods created by Philippe Divine. I will leave it to you to make your own decision as to whether you think these posts are beneficial as the Cabinet concluded, or offensive as represented by Chuck Jensen.

The following is a brief summary of the sequence of events so you may better understand the evolution of this matter as a whole:

1. Chuck sent an email to Philippe Divine on December 20th informing him that he had fallen out of communication with his second level training officer, that he was considering him to be inactive as of November 30th, that he was going to prohibit his posts in the Club’s forums, and that he was going to remove all posts placed on the Club’s forums subsequent to November 30th. The email was sent in the standard role playing tone of a superior officer dictating terms to a junior officer.

2. Philippe Divine, unknown to Chuck, had experienced a disagreement with his second level Trainer. The Trainer had informed Philippe that his most recent training game turn was “gamey” and insisted that Philippe replay it in a more correct manner. As Philippe is an extremely historical minded individual, such an accusation struck him very poorly. As a result of his previous poor experience at the hands of the LGA Trainer that was assigned to help integrate him into our club, he took offense at the role playing tone of Chuck’s email, and the demands that it also included. As a result, he returned an email to Chuck that was curt and rude. His response specifically targeted his displeasure with what he perceived to be a superior tone of a personal nature. His response did not include any disparagement of our club. It was very much directed personally at Chuck.

3. Chuck, who I am sure did not intend any offense by the role playing tone of his email, was rather shocked by Philippe’s hostility. Chuck then issued an email to Philippe saying, “Goodbye Mister Divine” in the standard 18 point font that he normally uses.

4. Philippe fired back “as you wish” and asked Chuck to delete his posts and links from our forum sites.

5. Chuck then contacted me instructing either Pierre of me to remove Philippe’s posts. Pierre was copied on this email. This is the point at which I got actively involved. Although Chuck had been copying me all along, I did not read the email until the previous exchanges had already occurred. As you can imagine, those exchanges occurred in very rapid succession.

6. I then sent an email to Chuck, with a copy to Pierre, telling him that I was not so certain that it was in the best interest of our membership to remove Philippe’s posts that contained the links to his graphics mods and had already been very well received by the membership. I asked that Chuck take “two steps backwards, breathe deeply, and cool off for a couple of days”. I never questioned Chuck’s decision to expel Philippe from LGA. Obviously the two of them were not going to be able to coexist.

7. Rather than take my advice to stand down for a bit, Chuck came right back at me telling me that he was “asking Pierre to remove his (Philippe’s) posts”.

8. I immediately responded to Chuck with a copy to Pierre that it was not his place “to ask Pierre to remove those posts”.

9. Chuck came right back at me telling me what I would do in this regard.

10. I responded that if Chuck felt this strongly about the issue, that he was fully within his rights to take the matter before the Cabinet. I made it very clear to Chuck that, once deleted, the posts were unrecoverable. Pierre had also clearly informed Chuck that he would neither delete the posts, nor delete the member from our club records.

11. The matter moved to the Cabinet at this point. A discussion ensued, the Cabinet voted, and it was ruled that the posts would remain in place.

Now, the reason I took the stance that I did, and suggested a referral of this issue to the Cabinet is very simple; the Cabinet has jurisdictional authority over the club’s forums. The deletion of posts placed in our forums is a very serious matter as, if abused, could lead to outright censorship. The disposition of forum posts is specifically not within the authority of any army commander in this club to rule upon.

I can assure you that I most certainly do not “ignore Cabinet votes, the rules of the NWC, or act with any level of impunity” as I so please. Marco has already very accurately attested to the fact that I do not have “3 of the 5 Cabinet votes locked up” either. And the day that anyone ever decides to name this club after me, will be the very same day that I resign. I am not here for me. I am here for the people who elected me to my present post. I am here for the members. I am here for you.

Now where do we go from this point?

Personally, I would be an advocate for the following, unless the will of the general membership directed otherwise:

• An open Cabinet forum in which the members could not post, but would be able to read what the Cabinet members were discussing.

• An election of the Club Secretary and Public Relations Officer by a majority vote of the General Membership to alternating two year terms.

• An election of the Club’s Army Commanders by the active officers in their respective armies to alternating, between the French and Coalition, two year terms.

The next agenda that your Cabinet will undertake is to clarify the manner in which we will handle forum posting disputes in the future. That is to say, some more detailed directions as to how we think the Forum Moderators should conduct themselves. As for me, I envision the Moderators to be more like policemen who patrol the forums as a team to ensure that volatile posts are locked in a timely manner to prevent any hostile escalations to the public embarrassment of our club. When it comes to the actual deletion of posts, which I perceive to be a much more serious matter, I think the Cabinet should vote on the issue before taking any action that is irreversible. These are just my initial thoughts. We will discuss them in the Cabinet as a group so that we can collectively come up with the best method for the overall benefit of our club.

Following this discussion, we intend to revise our Club Rules to make them more clear and comprehensive. As they are currently rendered, there is a lot of gray area that can provide points of dissention. I think this will be a rather lengthy process, as we need to be careful to get this right. I also expect that we will be posting numerous polls related to our discussion, asking for your input as the members of our club as to what you would like to see in the new rules. Whatever we do, rest assured that you, the club’s membership, will get to vote your approval of the final product before it is ever enacted. This is your club. We work for you.

In closing, I will reiterate that it is neither my intention that the Cabinet interfere with the inner workings of the armies, nor that the respective Army Commanders interfere with the workings of club related decisions that are not related to any specific army.

Thanks for the time you have invested to read this post. I will be glad to answer any remaining questions you may have either in this forum, or in private emails, at your discretion. I would also encourage my fellow Cabinet members to add anything that they think of import that I may have missed. It is rather hard to relate every detail, and my post is already quite long.

Also note that my comments here do not reflect any “official response” of the Cabinet itself. These are my thoughts only. There are many discussions that we, as the Cabinet, have yet to undertake.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:48 am 
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Quote:
• An open Cabinet forum in which the members could not post, but would be able to read what the Cabinet members were discussing.

• An election of the Club Secretary and Public Relations Officer by a majority vote of the General Membership to alternating two year terms.

• An election of the Club’s Army Commanders by the active officers in their respective armies to alternating, between the French and Coalition, two year terms.


I would support these changes.

NWC is a club. Our dues are free. This is where I come to have fun. We should want our club to be a place to come and relax, enjoy our games, make new friends and of course further our hobby. I approach my gaming as a fun game. The key word being "game". Years ago in a small Asian country, it was not a game. It was survival. It took me a while to realize that everyone who is here takes their gaming to their own personal level. I will never be a tactician on a grand level. I will never be able to win a game against the likes of General Knox or Maréchal Bardon. But I can have fun playing a game against them and building a on line friendship. This is why I am here.

The main reason I would support this is because if an elected person does not do their job, the next election they have the chance of being replaced. It is only fair. Under the current rules, only the President is elected. These rules would allow the members to become more involved.

My only other thought would be this, instead of making the Cabinet an open forum, have the Cabinet Secretary post the minutes from your meetings in a locked thread so the members could read them. I personally think this should be done anyway.

Mark, I have not always agreed with everything you have proposed, that's just life, but I do agree that what you have done here is for the betterment of the membership and the club.

Thank you and thanks to all the members who make this a fun place to relax!


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:46 am 
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1. I believe that the size of the cabinet needs to be increased to permit representation for all the clubs primary armies. At the moment the Prussian and Austrian armies have no representation what so ever and the Russians can't vote ( unless that has recently changed ). I am not sure what percentage of your active officers this entails ,but I suspect its a pretty good size chunk of your membership with no say and totally in the dark as to what club government is doing.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:53 am 
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Well said Walt, I posted a similar thought on another thread. I guess it's the French and Anglo-Allied armies and a bunch of junior partners who don't need to be consulted, only informed of decisions.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:25 pm 
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What the club is about is playing games and enjoying a shared appreciation for the time period. As long as games are played, the club is in fine shape.

Every once in a while, we get detoured by how we should go about things and lose sight of the what. It is sad to see Chuck and Paco leave. I've known them a long time and know that they take their decision seriously. I've know Mark less time, but I think I know him well enough that he is looking out for the best interest of members. Honorable people can and will have disagreements. To be frank, I don't care what the root cause was. Airing disagreements in public simply means that people are compelled to take sides. It is not necessary or productive to point fingers from any party. If it could not be worked out in private consultation then bring up the salient points for discussion.

If the underlying cause is that the rules are unclear and are interpreted differently by different members, then the cabinet can debate. Should the cabinet not come to a satisfactory answer, one that they can agree to and support with one voice, then put the opposing viewpoints up to a vote by the membership and change the club rules based on the vote. The fact that there is a disagreement seems to indicate that at the very least clarification is in order. I think that having an open dialog around the role of the cabinet, leadership, etc. will be a good and productive thing. More transparency around decision making is an excellent start, and I look forward to hearing more on some of these ideas.

I think the original 5 person structure of the cabinet is appropriate. And as far as Allied representation, the post on the cabinet is for the coalition CiC, not the Anglo-Allied commander. A few years back, Gary McClellan held the post and he was the Austrian commander. If you do not feel represented, then that is something you need to discuss with Marco since he is the Allied CiC.

Regards,

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Duc de Castiglione et Prince de Wagram
Commandant de la Garde Imperiale


Last edited by Jeff Bardon on Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:28 pm 
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If you want to know how many member has each army go there http://nwc.derwinski.pl/index.php and

and you will see:
- 125 active French officers
- 43 active Anglo-allied officers
- 15 active Austrian officers
- 32 active Prussians officers
- 28 active Russians officers
- 1 active Swedish officer

Or if we look a it differently we will have on one side 125 officers considered as members of the French Army and 119 on the other side considered as the Coalition against Napoleon. Therefore if you want more representation on the allied side it would be fair to add more representation of the French side.
So far the biggest allied army is still the Anglo-Allied army.

David Stotsenburgh wrote:
Well said Walt, I posted a similar thought on another thread. I guess it's the French and Anglo-Allied armies and a bunch of junior partners who don't need to be consulted, only informed of decisions.


And there I am not sure what you are trying to say? Do you think that some armies are more important than others because their membership is more "vocal" on the forum?

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:40 pm 
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MCJones1810 wrote:
• An open Cabinet forum in which the members could not post, but would be able to read what the Cabinet members were discussing.


I would prefer that our representatives come to our armies forums to inform us of what is going on, leaving them some space in the Cabinet to maneuver/discuss with others representatives. Sometimes some stuffs are better kept away from membership. I am thinking mainly about cheating members. The less people are involved in it the better it is.

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3ème Régiment de Grenadiers - Bataillon d'élite du 3ème Légère
2ème Brigade
Grenadiers de la Réserve
Réserve
La Grande Armée
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Napoléon Bonaparte

Military justice is to justice what military music is to music.
Groucho Marx


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:18 pm 
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General Guegan
All do respects, my post relates to equal representation for ALL club members which at the moment does not appear to exist,not some petty balance of power issue on the cabinet. Now....I do understand your position here especially in light of Marshal Jensens "Coalition Confederates" comment in his resignation speech. However to paint all of the Coalition armies with the same brush would be a major error in judgment on your part and the French armies. IF Marshal Jensen's accusations are in some ways factual and not some sour grapes forum rant then we clearly have politics getting involved where it doesn't belong. Are Marshal Jensen's comments factual or is he trying to point us all down the wrong road ? You tell me...I don't have a clue due to the secretive way this clubs cabinet goes about its business.

Best Regards
Walt

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:16 pm 
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I find it sad that legitimate entities with in the club are so easily denied a voice in the cabinet. One person cannot represent the interest of 4 different armies fairly. Would it not be more fair to have the coalition armies vote amongst themselves as to whether they want Marcos to represent us in the cabinet or whether we want our own representative?

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:34 pm 
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Whether you vote, institute a rotation, or some other method, it's up to you and your coalition partners how you handle the CiC position. I'd recommend first talking with Marco since until these posts were made, he may not have been aware that you felt this way.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:00 pm 
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Guys,

The system has worked to an extent....the Cabinet has mostly had routine business until these past two years. There was very little strife and very little discussed. The personalities of Cabinet members the past two years created quite the clash.....

I personally think this.......GET RID OF THE CABINET!

We are a Wargaming Club not the 113th Congress.....we are supposed to be about playing games and having fun. To be honest most members never knew what went on and most could care less.....

I propose the restructure of the Club along lines of business and along the armies and their autonomy. I think that a simplification of the rules and NOT some damn expansion of them is needed. What are we the ACWGC? We going to have Rules 3.2.9.3.4.6.2.9 How to Piss in a Bucket? :mrgreen:

Get back to basics, strip all of the nonsense out......it just creates issues and makes people look angry and makes the Club look bad to outsiders.

I have other ideas I want implemented too.

The secrecy needs to go away....the members need to be served first, not the power brokers....

Btw in case anyone wonders....I had talked with Philippe about a year ago on another forum where he posted his Mods about joining us, he was hesitant about it as he was concerned about how the Club operated. I reassured him it wasn't an issue and he'd be fine....guess I was wrong. You think he's going to recommend people join us? He is very well published in the Tiller world.

Oh also, I did Club recruiting for 6 years for this Club, we have somewhat of a negative reputation in the wider Napoleonic gaming circle....I think it is time we fix it.

GET RID OF THE CABINET!

My actual proposal will come shortly....

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Chief of Staff (CoS) of the Allied Coalition
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:04 pm 
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Personally I am oppossed to turning the club into an electoral college and voting for everything.

This event and all these posts following are an example of how voting politicises the club.
Volunteers run the club and they volunteer. I am 100% fine with this. Its worked ok for my 7 years in the club.

Knowing how personal the debate became recently on both sides I am also oppossed to making the cabinet forum public as well as this will dump a whole lot more negative energy on the club.

If we introduce more democracy I foresee the forum no longer being dominated by discussions about the Napoleonic wars. The main emphasis will move to club politics about who has this job and that job etc. Who said what, who did not.....

Not a place I will want to visit.

Just my opinion others will disagree I am sure. But I don't know about you but real life has enough political BS for me.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:15 pm 
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To be truthful, I am looking forward to Scott's idea.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:40 pm 
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We are a Wargaming Club not the 113th Congress.....we are supposed to be about playing games and having fun. To be honest most members never knew what went on and most could care less.....
Quote:


Scott is 100% correct - this club is supposed to be about playing games / exploring our passions for the Napoleonic period but above all having a good time with the new friends we find around the world to play these games with !!!!

It is not about political power struggles / egos / what army has more members in the admin functions( but every army should have the opportunity for someone to perticipate on behalf of their army. We need these volunteers for sure ( which lets not kid ourselves ) take up a trmendous amount of personal time for the person volunteering to do the functions Without these volunteers there would not be much of a club either. Maybe we tweak the roles or the structure -

Scott is may also be right that the current system does not seem to be working - or we would not be having so many issues - i don't seem to remember this type of stuff in the INWC - maybe Scoott has something when he says do away with the cabinet - ( lessen's the chance for the temptation for one side or the other to try to control the club) ( Cabinet by its definition just invokes political images). I am anxious to hear what Scott has to say

As I for one would like to get back to seeing posts about battles / history / strategy / good books / and what if scenarios if this leader had done this or that and not the stuff I have seen lately -

Open disputes in public never solve anything and often just forces people in the respective camps to take sides and results in arriving at a palce where there is no ability to resolve a problem and save face at the same time

Just my P.P.of V and i could be out in left field on the matter


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:36 pm 
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Bravo Roy. As a young member of the club, I can only present my feelings, does not address the judge or give personal opinions. I do not feel any need to know what is being said on the forum for members of the Cabinet, so I know to do anything of any use and sharing of such discussions on the general forum can only cause endless disputes and discussions. Not necessarily relate to what we enter into this club. The cry for democracy often leads to chaos, just look at the agenda of Parliament. We are in the club, in which members occupy their seats by the structure modeled on the armies of the Napoleonic era, so we should use this principle to the everyday functioning. In the army executes the orders that we have in mind turning battles, and let express members their views on a forum. For all members should be respected, also those in the minority, otherwise instead of a tournament in which the officers of opposing armies fight, it will be a strange mutual admiration society, and pat on the back. I gave the bear at the time, and I wrote something that could personally touch the other person, so I know what I'm saying and that is why at this game already do not play


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