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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 5:08 am 
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Salute

We are hesitating to start RSW-035 : The battle of Ratan (Bautzen).
The question is asked by my opponent, he'll reveal himself if he wants to, who thinks that ships should be able to fire at the Russians.
For that, as the sea elevation is 0 :thumbsup: and the lowest ground is 10ft, they would have to be capable of indirect firing, what is not the case in the game.
But, is it a JTS mistake?
If it is, that would be very bad news for my opponent and the Russians, with Swedish ships of a range from 17 to 27! And the scenario would not be very well-balanced.
Personally, I'm ok to play the game with these conditions (no indirect fire) but what does History teach us ? Anybody knows ?
Thank you for your expert advice.

Vive l'Empereur!

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 8:03 am 
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Here is an account of the battle and the Navy involvement:
Quote:
On August 17 1809, the forces arrived at Ratan, outside Umeå, where a thick fog effectively covered the attackers. The landing of the troops went as according to plan and the next day, the landtroops started the march upon Sävar. On the night between the 17th and 18th Swedish captain Nordenskiöld led an attack against Umeå itself with his nine gunsloops. He shelled the bridge over the Umeå river but was not able to destroy it as he was met by hard Russian artilleryfire. Wachtmeister did not do a thing to assist him, although the explosions were heard to Sävar, and so Nordenskiöld returned out to sea after his failed mission. On the morning of the 19th the troops were attacked by 6.000 Russians in Sävar where they were commanded by Wachtmeister. The landstroops here lost one of the bloodiest battles of the war.to the Russian general Kamenski. Wachtmeister showed just excactly how bad a military commander he was.

Wachtmeister retreated back to Ratan with his tails between his legs after having lost at Sävar and at Ratan he was protected by the guns of the navy as well as artillery that was mounted on a nearby island as well as on the beaches. Kamenski followed and in the afternoon on August 20, he attacked without thinking twice. The Russian troops advanced without fear upon the Swedes. The Swedish guns immediately opened fire; death rained down on the Russians from the guns of the Swedish navy as well as from the land artillery, they cut deep, bleeding holes in the Russian lines. Kamenski lost about 3.200 in dead and wounded in this daring but foolish attack. "The village of Ratan was razed to the ground and the treetops were cut all the way to Djäkneboda", Allan Sandström tells us in his book "Sveriges sista krig". After these heavy fightings, Kamenski and Wachtmeister met for negotiations. The Russian commander demanded that the Swedes should ship out immediately, which the weak Wachtmeister agreed upon. Wachtmeister promised to ship out, and on August 22, the Swedes left.


http://www.multi.fi/~goranfri/navalwar.html

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 8:35 am 
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Quote:
For that, as the sea elevation is 0 :thumbsup: and the lowest ground is 10ft, they would have to be capable of indirect firing, what is not the case in the game.


I wonder what might happen if you change around the height amounts in the terrain settings of the PDT - full water hex and then change the height limit to something broadly approximating what a ship might have. As I don't know the scenario I have not looked into the specific PDT -but generally speaking there is a setting in the M&P PDT table.

"Line: For each terrain type, terrain height, height of man."

Anyway - it is true that you could give the guns shipboard an indirect capability I am sure.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:09 am 
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S_Trauth wrote:
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Anyway - it is true that you could give the guns shipboard an indirect capability I am sure.


Good idea!!!
I had never touched anything in the "holly" files, so I tried... and made it :frenchvive: ... Almost

In fact it's very simple, you just have to find the line and add a "+" to give indirect fire capability.
There is just a problem for one kind of ship : Kanonslup, because they get the same code, which is a letter, as the 6lb foot section. So, either Kanonslup have no indirect fire capability, or Kanonslup and 6lb foot section have it both.
For the 2 others kinds of ship : Howitzerslup and Mortarslup no problem, they got the capability alone.
There is a 4th kind of ship : those from the Galley division, I gave the capability to them but in fact, they can't fire because of overstacking and as they are fixed for all the game (I think)...

I said "almost" because it seems that indirect firing does inflict losses to the Russians but the window (or the tooltip) doesn't write the losses, it only writes "indirect fire" each time.


Anyway, I can send my corrected PDT.file to anybody who wants to try it.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 5:13 pm 
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I am maybe going to have a fiddle with an oob using some ships (with an alt test scenario) -to adjust the height -which I think adjusts which height that they shoot from. If it is like a pdt that I looked at last night (admittedly in a different series entirely) - it might have the height of a man set at 0 for a full water hex -and if you want to adjust for the target size (and vantage point of a ship) - it would seem to have to be higher -and granted if you have infantry with boats that come ashore this can be a little tricky if it is a defended landing area since there looks to only be one setting that you can use... but it might work if you are talking about a line of fire to shore hexes considering that no guy would actually be at sea level on a ship...

The other thing and I don't know if this translates over to NB but it existed in REN - I wonder if you can assign ship units as 'having boats' so that they have the ability to move (although if there are full water hex tributaries then you have a problem with too much mobility, without adjusting the maps slightly - which a user is not able to do.).

Edited: duh- well there is a more definitive PDT key in one of the titles (I think maybe Leipzig) -and I misinterpreted the height line so that it was the height of a man in each hex ... well at any rate I was completely wrong and that aspect won't work. . . looks like it is adding the indirect fire tick to each impacted unit.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 3:25 pm 
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I'm not sure what Bill's intent was...it could very well have been to only allow ships to strafe the coast line... maybe he'll float through here...

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 6:18 pm 
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It is possible but then all these ships would be there only to decorate because there is no reason that the Russians walk on the beach!

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 6:23 pm 
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Wouldn't be the first time "window dressing" was included in a scenario...just sayin!

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 8:11 pm 
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In the account of the battle here: viewtopic.php?p=85862#p85862

It does say that the artillery participated in the fight... So they weren't doing any window dressing.

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