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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:35 pm 
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Gentlemen,
How much time I play games in NWC so much as well I hear arguments "pro" and "contra" House Rules owing to artificiality and imperfection of them. Moreover, those get various renditions for some subjective and objective causes usually.
I guess, the only Rules we have to use are: REALISM/or just common sense wherever the previous one is impossible to perform/ and HISTORICITY based on our knowledge of the subject. Each of us is an enthusiastic scholar of the Napoleonic epoch, and each of us has a right to expect those above from our opponents and their actions. Let us to repose on that.
If we'll go this way, we get definition with many "greasy" matters such as:

I. Troops in Marching Order

An HPS game hex symbolizes the roadway length of 100m.
According to the regulations, each man occupied 0.5m in the rank and 0.3 in the file, each horse occupied 1m in the rank and 2m in the file, a gun carriage with limber and team occupied 18m, and an ammunition wagon with its team occupied 15m of road length, approximately. In my calculations, I take into consideration all intervals between any parts of March or Battle order.

1. Infantry.
During road/street marches, Infantry formed a column by section (3 ranks, 6 files) or double-section (3 ranks, 12 files), if the road/street is wide enough (6m at least).
Maximal possible number in one hex: on a byroad - up to 450 men, on turnpike - up to 860 men.

2. Cavalry.
They usually formed a column of four/three/two files moving by double ranks, they also could make the files double on a wide roadway.
Maximal possible number in one hex are: on a byroad up to 100 horses, on turnpike up to 200 horses.

3. Artillery.
They formed a company column one-by-one with all guns plus limbers at the front, followed by other battery vehicles: ammunition caissons (of 1st, 2nd, 3rd Line) and equipment; where roads allowed, a double column was used, but guns always grouped together at the front.
The maximal possible number in one hex is: a single column of 8-guns battery with 1st Line Caissons (at least) up to 260m, a column of 6-guns battery up to 200m. So, we must to leave two empty hexes after each 8-guns battery symbol and one empty hex after each 6-guns battery symbol on byroads, and one empty hex after each 8-guns battery symbol on turnpikes.

Infantry and cavalry units in Marching Order must not make any stacks on their roadway. Exceptions: 1Btn/or Sqn+1Battery; 1Btn/or Sqn+1Train.

This way of marching could help us to perform realism of the situation, to make corrections in the game space and time because in the reality any loss of intervals between the marching units could make a state of chaos, order and time loosing. It was inadmissible. That's why the special Staff - or Quartermaster - officers and Guides kept track of the marching order and inter-units space on roads. It was only permitted when Btn/Sqn let a battery or train to pass throughout their marching order, and they used waysides in this case.

Cavalry must make marching, maneuvering and fighting ONLY by squadrons or divisions (two squadrons) and not by one regiment symbol.
Brigade / Divisional Leader must to head any marching, maneuvering or attacking moves of the main body of his troops at the beginning of the moves, at least.


II. Maximal hex capacity.

An HPS game hex symbolizes the ground area of 100mX100m.
So, how many Inf, Cav or Art could stack in that room on the real Napoleonic battlefields? The principled question. Therefore, I have researched it very closely. I've looked into my copies of the French, Russian, Austrian regulations, memoirs etc., and this is my conclusion:
According to the regulations, each man occupied 0.5m in the rank and 0.3 in the file, each horse occupied 1m in the rank and 2m in the file.
Platoons within one battalion or squadron had to contain an equal number of files, and it was permissible to transfer men from one company to another in order to make all platoons equal. Only elite companies were excepted from this rule.
Between 1805 and 1815, it was still typical to form troops in two or even three lines at a distance of 200 - 300m.
Battalions, squadrons and batteries for the second line must be deployed at the minimal distance of 2 hexes (in the third one) from the first line.
Any Infantry, Cavalry, Artillery unit which has lost 50% of their strength was supposed to leave the battle line.

1. Infantry.
There were four main battle orders at the Napoleonic Wars: the three-rank Line, Opened or Closed Battalion Column, Battalion Square and Skirmish Order.
a) Line Order was using for the defense predominantly.
Maximal possible number of troops in Line per one hex is 1Btn up to 600 men. If you need to deploy in line a battalion with more than 600 men, you may do it only next to a smaller battalion or next to an empty hex. In a village or town, the line may be deployed only in hexes with a single building or along-street.
b) Opened Battalion Column with full interval (the distance between its parts was equal to the frontage of a platoon) or half-interval (the distance between its parts was equal to a half of the frontage of a platoon), was to be used to march infantry through defiles, over the battlefield in the presence of an enemy, to move one line through another ("passage de lines"). Opened Battalion Columns had the pretty wide intervals - 20m between each other, and 50m - between two brigades. The intervals were used by cavalry and artillery for their maneuvering.
Maximal possible number of troops in Opened Columns per one hex is 2 Btns up to 1,700 men.
c) Closed Battalion Column (the Battalion Mass - the Austrian variant) / or Attack Column had to have the minimal intervals of 3m between its successive parts, they were to march to attack with bayonets.
Maximal possible number of troops per one hex in Closed Columns is 4 Btns up to 3,500 men.
But those battalions must be of the same regiment because any attack with closed columns had resulted in great disordering and interfusing of all partakers. After the attack, men were supposed to retrieve their company or battalion at least.
d) Battalion Square could have 3 or 6- rank deep formation.
Maximal number of troops in Square per one hex is 1 Btn up to 800 men.
e) Skirmish Order.
Light Infantry Skirmishers: when in the skirmish order, the men were to act in pairs/files; an interval between two men in a pair was to be 1m, the interval between two pairs was to be 2-5m in the "thick chain" and 5-10m in the "double chain"; in case of the second variant, there was an interval of 50-60m between the first and the second chain. A whole battalion or regiment could be formed in skirmisher order, in this case one company / battalion on each flank remained in reserve in closed order. Men were usually sent to "tirailleurs" by platoons or companies, which relieved each other in turn.
Light Infantry Skirmishers detached from a battalion were to form a single chain: the Frenchmen up to 200m, the Russians and Austrians up to 300m, the Prussians and British up to 150m forward of the main line, according to their regulations. Supports in closed orders were to be placed up to 100m behind the skirmisher line. The maximal possible number of Light Infantry Skirmishers per one hex is 100 men in the "thick chain".
Line Infantry Battalion Skirmishers: the French Voltijeur company, the British Light company, the Austrian Schutzen Zugs, the Prussian skirmish platoons of the Third Rank, the Russian Strelki platoon and selected 10-12 men from the third ranks of each platoon could be deployed for skirmisher screening of the battalion. They were to fight in groups of 3 men, not in pairs; the interval between the groups was 5-10m.
Line Infantry Skirmishers detached from a battalion were to form a single chain at a distance of up to 100m forward of their battalion. The maximal possible number of Line Infantry Skirmishers per one hex is 60 men.

2. Cavalry.
There were two main battle orders for a regiment at the Napoleonic Wars: two-rank Line, Opened or Closed Squadron Column.
a) Line order / or Battle order / or Charge order was using for charges as a rule. I don't know why, but HPS games have an option Line Order only for Infantry. This is a big mistake because Line was the main attack order for Cavalry all time. Any column formation has very weak and vulnerable point - its unprotected flanks.
Maximal number of troops in Line Order per one hex is 1-2 Sqns up to 200 horses total.
b) Columns.
Opened Column by Platoons / En colonne par pelotons . March order in column by platoons for the DEFILE and broken terrain movement.
Maximal number of troops in Columns by Platoons per one hex is 1-2 Sqns up to 200 horses total.
Opened Column by Companies / En colonne par divisions. March order in column by companies for the broken terrain movement.
Maximal number of troops in Columns by Companies per one hex is 1-3 Sqns up to 300 horses total.
Closed Column by Squadrons / En colonne serre. March order in column by closed squadrons for movements over the battlefield in the presence of an enemy. Closed columns also could be used for to charge on infantry.
Maximal number of troops in Closed Columns per one hex is 1-4 Sqns up to 800 horses total. Squadrons in all kind of the columns must be of the same regiment.
All squadrons for the second line must be deployed at the minimal distance of 2 hexes (in the third one) from the first line.

3. Artillery.
In opened position: intervals between cannons supposed to be 10m - 15m (some sources give 12m - 20m); in closed/fortified position: 6m-8m. Why intervals were so huge? Gun limbers should have space for speedy maneuvering between and around cannons. Also we have to consider the width of space that occupied each gun carriage on the position: 3m - 4m. Their limbers were placed at a distance of 20m behind the pieces, 1st Line caissons of Light pieces were to be placed at 20-30m behind the limbers one per one gun, and 1st Line caissons of Heavy pieces, which had no ammunition boxes in limbers, 10m behind the limbers. The rest of caissons - 2nd and 3rd Line - were placed at 50-100 up to 300m behind a battery.
Maximal quantity of guns per one hex is 8 pieces. Batteries never positioned in two rows.

III. Infantry versus cavalry.

Whatever infantry unit must not bring themselves straightway (!) to whatever enemy cavalry unit closer than maximal fire range. No exceptions. If only that cavalry unit persists and does not give up ground in NEXT TURN, then the infantry unit may attack them, it's up to the unit commander.
This way could help us to perform realism of the situation because in reality any cavalry unit, that even (and especially(!)) get disordered, routed or less than 200 men, could not let enemy to come up straightway and attack them with fire, but the cavalry could leave and easily outclass the enemy infantry by using its vantage of speed and maneuverability; moreover, this method could help us to perform realism of so-called “Appel signal” situation, when (in reality - after any charge) all cavalry units that have performed a charge, by order of the trumpet signal "Appel'!" was suppose to leave a zone of fire and rally around their standards. Our cavalry also must have that chance in the next turn after a charge. This is realistic and historically approved.

We have just to do what could happen in reality, and don't do what couldn't.
Is it complicated for you, gentlemen?
Je vois que je vous fais peur.
But as the Napoleonic scholars, we're familiar with all those matters, or have imagination at least.
And ultimately, Realism and Historicity "...uber all ist!" If not, let's play something another. It’s "Diablo"- for example. There is a lot of shooting and horrors. Cool!
"Je leur ai montre le chemin de la gloire..." (Napoleon) :sly: :russianveryhappy:

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 5:55 pm 
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Nice research, Prince Repnin. I think it should be possible to incorporate many of your findings into a special pdt file. Has anyone done that yet?

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 6:11 pm 
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Monsieur very good, one thing is for sure the more rules you have no matter how good they are slows play and confusion offend the end results. Now if you want to play by house rules or MOE rule that is up to the player, and the freedom to play. If we want new people in this Club a lot of different rules to learn would stop me from joining, now when I played table top we had the Empire book by Scott Bowden. Now you had to read and learn that book to play and man it was a pain when you are a family man and working or go to collage.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 6:15 pm 
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"Nice research, Prince Repnin. I think it should be possible to incorporate many of your findings into a special pdt file. Has anyone done that yet?"

Thank you, Sir.

I do it myself in my custom scenarios.
And I can re-edit PDT file of any HPS scenario.

Chest' imeyu!

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 8:51 pm 
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If you edit a pdt and scenario it's important to rename them to avoid problems with the original pdt and oob.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:06 pm 
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Regarding "Skirmish Order", I wonder if the numbers work out, in late games like Leipzig we have 1/6 as skirmishers what will lead to skirmisher units well above 100 men.
The early games like Austerlitz have 1/9 but even here a bigger battalion will be above the limit set for Line Infantry Skirmishers.
So one may end up constantly breaking the set limits.

I also wonder a bit about the distance set for skirmishers as Muir's "Tactics and the Experience of Battle in the Age of Napoleon" mentions to ways for skirmishing, either "bickering between opposing light infantry in the no man's land between the two armies when" or "more serious fighting when either the light infantry themselves, or the troops they were covering, were intent on coming to close quarters".
So there would be sometimes a greater distance between the skirmishers and the formed units.


BTW maybe some underlining of the rules with screenshots explaining some points could be helpful.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:38 am 
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Monsieur le capitaine,

the real understanding of the R&H rules you could get with practice in a game only;
I have offered to try one, why you afraid, if you really interesting in implementation of HRs?

In general, if somebody wishes to play the Realism&Historicity way, he ought to use the one and only universal rule for any game: do not make things that could not happen in the historical reality on battlefields of the Napoleonic wars. That is it! Yes, he would need the corresponding attainments
for that. But this is another question already. That is why I say: R&H rules are for the real fans and scholars of the epoch only.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 4:51 am 
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Christian Hecht wrote:
Regarding "Skirmish Order", I wonder if the numbers work out, in late games like Leipzig we have 1/6 as skirmishers what will lead to skirmisher units well above 100 men.
The early games like Austerlitz have 1/9 but even here a bigger battalion will be above the limit set for Line Infantry Skirmishers.
So one may end up constantly breaking the set limits.


Christian,

What Vladimir is describing is a set of house rules that may be applied to playing ANY scenario. At the same time there was a more technological branch in R&H where we explored to what extent following these maxims could be transferred to the game engine. Only modifying the oob, pdt and other files, but without changes to the engine code. In short - ut's very much possible. And one of the results of this research was a need of units size unification.

Plausible results can be achieved only if the units are approximately of the same size. In case of infantry - 380-430 man strong. Under this condition such huge skirms coys as you say by construction can't be seen. On the other hand it requires extensive rearrangement of oob files, which in turn makes the work slow down or halt.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:35 am 
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Prince Repnin wrote:
That is why I say: R&H rules are for the real fans and scholars of the epoch only.


It sounds like a dogma...

I think we can be fan and/or scholars [whatever that means] of the epoch and not play the R&H rules... :frenchwink:

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:59 pm 
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I would have to say that the R&H rules don't appear to be something that will suit everyone, but I would highly reccomend an open minded approach to giving them a try. Personally I like what I have read and look forward to giving it a try in the near future.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 3:19 pm 
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@Prince Repnin
I'm surely not afraid to try it out but currently, as I already said in my HR thread, I aim for a much easier approach.

A. To find a set of OR that simulates the battles as close as possible to reality and that works in the majority of the scenarios, because a wrong set of OR can produce totally weird and awful results.
B. Put some basic HR on top to improve the realism further.

I think this will be necessary especially when the new associate members come in as they need orientation on a basic(easy) level, there is no sense to expect them to right away jump for a Total Conversion mod as that is simply too much for beginners.
One simply has to learn to walk before one can run.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 9:07 am 
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It would be nice if there was a way to allow inf to attack horse. Seems a stretch to have 60 horse block 1000 inf. Should have the horse retreat if meleed. And horse riding along a road should not take a turn off the road in towns or near rivers causing disorder. The default should be to not move into disorder without a warning. Just venting.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 1:52 pm 
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Infantry should stop so many hexes before Cavalry, Infantry can run up on horses and halt a charge taking away some of their points.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 5:06 pm 
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Vladimir,
I have always fond the H&R concepts fasciniting and I read the large document you guys put out. I like most of it but the main reason I have avoided it is that it will take more mental energy to learn than I have available to apply, especially because it looks like the same game but is different in so many ways. Regarding the House Rules you propose her, I think most of them make sense but I think I would only use them if I was using them for ALL of my games. Otherwise, I think my head woudl explode. Do you guys have a master list of the scenarios you have made?

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 5:21 pm 
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Jim Pfleck wrote:
Vladimir,
Do you guys have a master list of the scenarios you have made?


Jim, look, please, into Christian Hecht's topic House Rules. There is.

Chest' imeyu!

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