Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)

Gentlemen
It appears the French Army have become robots. No originality, junior officers do not think for themselves and learn by experience but follow a set of rules set down in tablets of stone. I for one will not bother to play Battleground Waterloo again, well done sirs you have managed to kill a whole historic battle off by mechanical means[:I]

Field Marshal Sir "Lucky" Jim (K.G.)
Commander
Divisie Nederlandsche Kavallerie, 1st. Corps
Allied/Dutch Army

"And let my sword not sleep in my hand"

Sir Jim,

There is hope that the villagers of Waterloo will see you pass by again. Keep your chin up, little buck-a-roo. [:D]

Colonel (ret) Al Amos
1er Dragoons
AdN

I must admit that the "Panzerblitz" style of play favored by the majority of the French Army these days is why many of us have given up the TS titles entirely. It's much harder to get away with using the same old tactics in the HPS games beccause of the campaign mode. Of course I do not mean any disrespect to any French officers by this comment. It just strikes me that using the same tactcs over and over again without regard to historical is ultimately selfdefeating...to everyone.



Feldmarschall-Leutnant Philip Roubaud
Kommandant
Vienna Militärakademie
Imperial Armee of Austria

Jim..

You win one battle now and then and some how you are an expert ???

Or perhaps you quake in fear at the approach of French troops ?

Marechal John Corbin
Chief of Staff
La Grande Armee

Well,

From what I saw in the "2003 Barrett against Muddy" that the battle was a nice and square game and not at all a panzerblitz or unhistorical game. It was certainly a fast attack, full of danger for the French to do. Now if you haven't come with your own tactic to defend yourself against a well know attack you can blame only yourself.[:D]

<font color="green"> <b>Général de Division David Guégan Comte de Toulon, Duc de Nimes</b>
Co 11eme division
III Corps, AdN
Co Division d'Infanterie de la Jeune Garde, Garde Impériale


http://home.earthlink.net/~davidguegan/</font id="green">

Find a player that plays historically and play him alot. That is always my answer to this dilemna. Barrett, Paco and some of the others (Nowacki always blows me out) play that way and you probably will not cure them. I have played John Corbin some and he is a good bloke. Not out for panzer attacks. We dueled in Wagram Campaign and he didnt try and outflank me all of the time just because he had more maneuver elements (which is a term I use for game piece count).

Or have your opponent play the Allies in a game for a change and play it as a Maneuver (ok - so you lose a few points - who cares anyway about points)! I am sure that some of the French would change sides and fight as the Allied player if you give them enough perfume and lace. [:D]

Or as Marlon Brando once said: "I made him an offer he couldnt refuse!"

Love you Frenchies! Soak up that eau de cologne![8D]

Oberst Wilhelm Peters
2nd Kuirassiers, Reserve Korps, Austrian Army

<b>We dueled in Wagram Campaign and he didnt try and outflank me all of the time just because he had more maneuver elements (which is a term I use for game piece count).</b>

I should point out, Bill that the criticism of these tactics is largely limited to the old Talonsoft stuff-Waterloo in particular. It's not usually possible to use the same old mechanical style in a campaign game, of say Wagram because there are variables in the mix that are simply not available in BG:Waterloo. For instance, as I understand the "Full Barrett" it's pretty much an 'all or nothing' gambit based on crushing the Allied lines within the first 6-10 turns before the Prussians get in and flank the French. Since this is a one battle game, the Frenchman really doesn't have anything to lose. To be fair to them, I don't suppose they see much else they can do. Of course, in a campaign game this can be disasterous. Let's say you throw your whole army at the the enemy, and mangage to break his lines and win the battle...but you lose a whole lot of cavalry doing it...as I've seen happen in BG:Waterloo. What the Hell do you do in the second game, faced with a hoard of pissed off Cossacks or Austrian Heavy cavalry and you've got 75 man regiments left?

Let's face it. The TS games were great in their day and the graphics remain first rate but mechanically they are deeply flawed. It's too easy to fall into a formulaic pattern with them. Vive le HPS I say and the new title can't come out too soon for me.

Your humble & obedient servant,



Feldmarschall-Leutnant Philip Roubaud
Kommandant
Vienna Militärakademie
Imperial Armee of Austria

Sir,

I hate Panzerblitz too - my first HPS games were very hard to me but now I try use house rules to HPS games which made these games much better and better. I think it's possible to use napoleonic war spirit in HPS games. If you wish I can play with you


<center><font color="orange"><h4>General Zbyszek Pietras
1er Regiment de Chasseurs a Cheval, Vieille Garde
16th Division V Corps Armee du Rhin</font id="orange">

<font color="orange">Duc de Danzig, Comte de Bourges</font id="orange"></h4></center>

There is a lot to be said for playing historically; however, isn't one of the main points of historical study to learn from the past as to not repeat the same mistakes? It seems to me that the study of military science and military history are to develop a style of warfare which improves the ods of victory! Am I mistaken?

<hr noshade size="1"><center>[url="mtdavies@msn.com"]Major Michael "Zettlemyer" Davies[/url]
Commandeur 2 é Brigade der Kavallerie
VIème Corps Bavarois, L'Armée du Rhin
[image]http://mikedavies122863.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/konig.jpg[/image]
Librarian & Archivist
[url="http://mikedavies122863.tripod.com/college_imperial_du_mars/College_Imperial_du_Mars.htm"]Collège Impérial de Mars[/url]
</center><center>[url="http://mikedavies122863.tripod.com/index.htm"]Ecole de Mars[/url]</center>

The <i>Full Barrett</i> would probably not be possible if cavalry units' stacking limit was a bit lower. As a matter of fact, most of the BG games that turn into massacres (especially NiR) would drasticly change!! It would probably allow battles to be more historically accurate.

Nevertheless, in a "reverse Waterloo" game (where I got to play the Allieds), I am trying the <i>Full <b>Reverse</b> Barret</i>. At turn 4, with 85 french guns captured, the situation is looking pretty good!! Will my opponent write on this board that the <i>Full Reverse Barrett </i>is cr**?
I do hope so! [;)]

[url="mailto:pyguinard@hotmail.com"]Capt. Pierre-Yves Guinard[/url],
6e Division, II Corp
AdN

I tend to prefer the <i>Full Reverse Barrett with a half twist</i> as opposed to the common garden <i>Reverse Barrett</i>... [;)][:o)]

I'm totally with Jim on this one: it's got so predictable, especially with newer French officers. The shame is that there are other equally effective strategies out there:-

To prove this to myself I played a manouevre with an experienced Coalition officer. I experimented with a 'manouevrist' strategy - small attacks were made at various intervals on a brigade level with the emphasis on timing in order to keep my opponent off balance. I think the impact was just as effective as a 'Barrett', in fact aside from a bit of skimishing, the Old and Middle Guard played no part (although I hope their deployment opposite the Ridge tied down defenders in that location while I moved and attacked elsewhere).

Would fixing the Guard for ~6 turns encourage more creativity?


<font color="orange">Majoor Peter Robinson
Commander I Corps
[url="http://www.geocities.com/militaireacademie"]Koninklijke Militaire Academie[/url] Adjutant
3rd (Prince of Wales's) Dragoon Guards</font id="orange">

Well I agree with Jim, it's a failing of the Talonsoft game engine. That's why I'm an HPS convert. Skirmishers in particular drove me crazy. However, in fairness the point of the game is to win and get points and thus exploiting the game engine is just the means to an end. That's always a problem with any ladder based on victory points. I assume the NHWC is dead, but those that prefer full house rules that would be the place to be. I don't think anybody would complain if the house rules were actually incorporated into a new game engine, they are well meaning but damned difficult to implement in a full battle.
Paco I suspect and Barrett I know are actually cunning players that simply know how to exploit the engine. The fact they are both lawyers explains a lot.[;)] That takes intelligence and experience. I've seen more junior attempts to emulate the Full Barrett and it's a shambles. I'm as guilty as anybody for adopting questionable tactics although as allies I don't get the opportunity very often.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by SansSouci</i>
<br />I tend to prefer the <i>Full Reverse Barrett with a half twist</i> as opposed to the common garden <i>Reverse Barrett</i>... [;)][:o)]

I'm totally with Jim on this one: it's got so predictable, especially with newer French officers. The shame is that there are other equally effective strategies out there:-
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

<font color="yellow">I think the problem is that the Full Barrett is the only "strategic guide" available on the web for new officers. Pete, I am sure that if you took time to write your "manoeuverist strategy" down, many rookies may be tempted to try it out!</font id="yellow">
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
(...)
Would fixing the Guard for ~6 turns encourage more creativity?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

<font color="yellow">Fixing the Guarde Impériale could work but I still think that the whole dynamics of the Battleground system favors the attacker, mainly because cavalry is really powerfull (1000 heavies => 3750 men!!!).

By the way, wasn't the stacking limits in HPS lowered? If I recall, Al Amos pleaded admirably well for that to happen.</font id="yellow">

[url="mailto:pyguinard@hotmail.com"]Capt. Pierre-Yves Guinard[/url],
6e Division, II Corp
AdN

The "problem" (if any) I think is found more in the scenario design than anything. There's nothing in the "full Barrett" that can't be defended, but since the game starts with the troops in such close contact, the allied options are a bit limited.

Ideally, other than some light skirmishing, troops at the start of a major battle should be 3-4 turns away from major contact. Give players a chance to "shape" the battle.

By far the worst for this is Ligny. (though nothing remotely compares to the nightmare that is Monmouth in 1776... now that's a badly done scenario)

Feldmarschall Gary McClellan
1st Jäger Bn
Chief of Staff Imperial Austrian Army

We'll I shall offer up my opinion on it as soon as the man himself is done creaming me. I managed to get the Guard fixed for 10 turns, albeit, they were allowed to move to La Belle Alliance. I also enforced ZOC and skirmisher rules too, so we shall see how the adding of some house rules effect the system. But already I can see the classic move against Braine le'Alleud (sp?) unfolding as is the isolation of Saxe-Weimar's brigade. I tend to be one who fights conventional but prone to crazy stuff too.

But are we not here also to pay homage to the nature of these events and the people involved in them?? Do we not try to imitate them in our design, makeup of command and websites, and other ways?? We are also a historical club that does all these things, so attempting to play as they historically fought, would only enrich your experience and give you a greater appreciation for the way they fought, the tactics they used, and make victory oh so sweeter.

However I am taking a liking to HPS now, since me and Dierk Walter have been ramming heads there since last July or so, and now that I am playing some of my other games there and campaigns.

We can debate till we turn blue in the face, but we should enjoy the games, each others company, and the many funny, off the wall people here. Besides we all have our days of victory, as does those who win all the time have their days of defeat. But we all get to the top places sonner or later, some just take longer. [:D] (Like me!! Hehe!!)

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[url="http://www.scott-ludwig.com"]<b>Generallieutenant Scott Ludwig</b>[/url]

Kommandeur
3. Infanterie-Brigade and Aide-du-Camp
I. Armee Korps
Heer am Niederrhein
[url="http://www.prussianarmy.com"]Preußische Armee[/url]

Kommandeur
Garde-Artillerie
[url="http://scott-ludwig.com/NWC/Prussia/Garde.htm"]Preußische Armee Garde-Brigade[/url]



GroßHerzog von Saxe-Weimar
(Grand Duke of Saxe-Weimar)
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