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Bill Peters

Post subject: Command Point System

Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:34 am

Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 10:18 am
Posts: 6156

I copied this over from the ACWGC forum where Dierk and others had put up some comments on fixed units, etc.

The concept is that commanders have ratings and for me that should have alot to do with how many units that they can command in any one turn.

For instance: Allied commanders (continental but probably British too) could rarely command more than one regiment at a time. They tossed the guys into Columns for operational maneuver but then fed the regiments in one at a time for the most part. Exceptions of course.

Thus the French, with their superior use of the brigade, could move in two infantry regiments or more at a time. They usually worked in pairs. Thus a better command rating for the French for the most part.

Thus, I assembled these ratings and point costs. See if you can pick this apart. I would like to forward something like this to John for consideration later on for a game.

I think that perhaps a command point system would be better. Thus:

A rated Commander: 8 points
B rated Commander: 6 points
C rated Commander: 5 points
D rated Commander: 4 points
E rated Commander: 3 points
F rated Commander: 2 points

Points could be passed down from Division to Brigade and so on if they are in Command range. For Corps and Army commanders this would be 10 hexes since the game doesnt have a range for them as of yet.

Point costs:

1 - to activate a unit to move (change of formations probably should be a free cost)
2 - activate all adjacent units to move
2 - to activate a STACK to move
3 - activate a LINE of units to move (must be connected to each other)
3 - to activate a road column - continuous line of units on a road
3 - to activate a STACK to attack (right - an F rated brigadier would need help from his upper echelon in order to do this)

If the officer is Detached then he cant receive command points.

I would be interested in your views on Detached units guys. Here are my thoughts:

Cavalry in a detached role was not uncommon. I would say that they can move full but perhaps have a Unit Test performed if Detached. If they pass their morale (+1 for cavalry) then they can move full MPs. If they dont then they move 2/3 MPs.

Thus if a E rated infantry unit is placed in a village to garrison this loction then he has small chance of passing his Unit Test and moving very far.

I would also say that any unit that failed to pass its Unit Test would be unable to melee.

Thoughts on this?

Bill Peters
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]

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Sir Muddy

Post subject:

Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:31 am

Joined: Tue May 22, 2001 7:35 pm
Posts: 852
Location: USA

Bill:

Interesting idea here and in your other post. I think one could use "action" points to get where you want to go. An army commmander only gets so many "action" points each turn. Each major action, e.g. movement, charges, and melees, would cost so many "action" points. This way, an army would be limited in what it could accomplish each turn. How many? That's the hard part but a rough estimate would be (the number of units times 0.75). Movement cost 1 point and melees cost 3 points. This way, either 3/4 of the army could move in a turn or 25 percent could attack in a turn; or a combination of both. This seems like a reasonable starting point. It would take major testing to find the right mix of "action" points, action costs, scenario time, etc.

Units out of command (from a Division commander) should be restricted in terms of movement and attack. That is, they shouldn't be allowed to attack at all unless within division command radius; and restricted to half movement or less as well.

FM Sir 'Muddy' Jones, KG
2nd Life Guards, Household Cavalry

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Bill Peters

Post subject:

Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 4:48 pm

Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 10:18 am
Posts: 6156

You got it Ken. My values are not hard and fast and with a few scenarios and an update engine ... and your favorite beverage close by (have a lemonade on me!) we could do wonders ...

Bill Peters
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]

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Richard

Post subject:

Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 9:57 pm

Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2001 3:21 pm
Posts: 233

Bill,

A good idea, but it would still be useful to incorporate an element of randomness too - ie. a small probability that a player won't be able to make use of a particular formation for a single turn. (See my comments on the ACW board.)

Maj. Rich White
4th Cavalry Brigade
Cavalry Corps
Anglo-Allied Army

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buffpilot

Post subject:

Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 1:43 pm

Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2002 1:15 pm
Posts: 213
Location: USA

I would allow units that are on a road and over 30 squares of ANY enemy unit to move freely on the roads. I would leave the action points as stated at night on roads and double cost for everything else at night. Also, commanders who didn't make theri command check would only get 50% or 0 points to hand down. That might get the same effect that Richard wants. It would also make you very aware of who your good commanders are. And the penelties of losing commanders would be very critical.

General de Division Doug Fuller
Duc de Montmorail et Comte de Hainaut
2e' Grenadiers a' Pied de la Vielle Garde
I Corp Commander
AdN

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SLudwig

Post subject:

Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 6:22 am

Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2003 10:08 am
Posts: 3839

Gee sounds like Shrapnel gamnes to me. [:D][;)][}:)]

<center>--------------------------------------------------------

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Ed Blackburn

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:13 am

Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 9:01 am
Posts: 1411
Location: USA

Good concept Bill, but there needs to a degree of randomness to it. Yes, Scott like in Shrapnel[:D]. Perhaps a test first to see if a unit will respond at all to its orders and then apply the cost factors (action points or whatever). Otherwise even with the costs the commander still has to much control over the battlefield. I think a unit out of command should still have at least a small chance of doing something to take in the possibilty of the local unit commander having some initiative, this could also be factored by nationality. Excllent direction to explore though, I like the thinking..[;)]

Brigadier General Ed Blackburn
Commanding 6th Div, II Corps, AAA
3rd Bn / 1st Regiment of Foot Guards

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HomerS

Post subject:

Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 12:42 pm

Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2003 7:31 pm
Posts: 61
Location:

I understand the need to make the games more historical (and hopefully balance them so the French always win of course) but how about playability? That is my only problem with MOE XVI etc. So many things to remember and opponents getting indignant when things go wrong. Still, I am becoming more intrigued. If we could use the leaders zones of influence to initiate movements such that anyone near the commanding General has a better chance of moving but the farther away the less likely they are to move then that would be very interesting. In one campaign Waterloo game I have my Corps are spread all over the map with perfect control over each one. In reality my orders from headquarter might initiate movement but not for several turns. (minutes or even hours <cough Ney cough>) While we are at it, a Leaders quality will influence this as well although there are cases (many of them) where subordinates ignored their commanders and moved to the right spot to save their armies. (How many people know that Gneisenau is the real hero of Waterloo?)

Lt. Don Golen 7eme Regiment de Dragons, 2eme Division de dragons, I Reserve Cavalry Corps Armee du Nord

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SLudwig

Post subject:

Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 1:25 am

Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2003 10:08 am
Posts: 3839

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by HomerS
 (How many people know that Gneisenau is the real hero of Waterloo?)

Lt. Don Golen 7eme Regiment de Dragons, 2eme Division de dragons, I Reserve Cavalry Corps Armee du Nord
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Prussia does!! [:D]

<center>--------------------------------------------------------

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Bill Peters

Post subject:

Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:19 am

Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 10:18 am
Posts: 6156

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by SLudwig
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by HomerS
 (How many people know that Gneisenau is the real hero of Waterloo?)

Lt. Don Golen 7eme Regiment de Dragons, 2eme Division de dragons, I Reserve Cavalry Corps Armee du Nord
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Prussia does!! [:D]

<center>--------------------------------------------------------

Herr WindbagenfÃ¼hrer General der Infanterie Scott Prinz "VorwÃ¤rts" Ludwig von Saxe-Weimar
(Old Windy) (Windbagfrankfurter) (The Mad Prussian)
Aide-du-Kamp and Webmaster
Kommandeur Garde-Grenadiere-Korps & 3. Infanterie-Brigade
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PreuÃŸische Armee

VorwÃ¤rts Meine Kinder, VorwÃ¤rts!! Glory and History Await You On This Day!!

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[url="http://napoleonicwargaming.com"]Napoleonic Wargaming - INWC[/url]</center>
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Now my understanding was that if Blucher had left it up to him the army would have fallen back on its depots.

Blucher remains the hero of Waterloo for not giving up on his allies.

Bill Peters
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]

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HomerS

Post subject:

Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:55 am

Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2003 7:31 pm
Posts: 61
Location:

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Bill Peters
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by SLudwig
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by HomerS
 (How many people know that Gneisenau is the real hero of Waterloo?)

Lt. Don Golen 7eme Regiment de Dragons, 2eme Division de dragons, I Reserve Cavalry Corps Armee du Nord
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Prussia does!! [:D]

<center>--------------------------------------------------------

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SLudwig

Post subject:

Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:24 am

Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2003 10:08 am
Posts: 3839

To be fair you are both correct. Blucher vowed unconditional support to the Allies. Rabid Nappy hater. [:D] Gneisenau for all intents and purposes distrusted Wellington and the Allies. But at Ligny Blucher got trapped under one of his many horses that day and got lost in the retreat. He would actually be dead and maybe the battle altered had it not been for his ADC. (CoA's be nice to your ADC's they may save your life.) With him missing Gneisenau organized the general withdrawl and made that fateful choice. Feeling betrayed by Wellington and bitter at them, swallowed his pride and followed Blucher's orders and fell back towards Welly's lines. Blucher arrived in time to lead the fateful long black lines to La Belle Alliance that would be the capstone on Nappy's grave!! [:D]

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