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 Post subject: Jena Feedback
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 4:13 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2003 6:40 pm
Posts: 64
Location: USA
Just wondering how everyone was doing with the new game. I'm about 200 turns into the big Six Day Historical scenario, playing the French against the AI.

I'm loving the great map but Im starting to struggle with the slow pace. It looks like its going to be about 300 turns before major contact with the Prussians around Jena. Whew! [:0] Thats a LOT of clicking! I'm not at all sure I wouldn't prefer a 15 minute turn more like the previous games.

What is everone else experiencing? Do you like the slower pace of the 10 minute turns? What happens if I just change the PDT to 15 minutes? [?] Would there be major ripple effects? Would I then have to change all the movement allowances and other parameters?

Lt. Tom Bridges
5/3e Artillerie à Cheval
1er Corps, Artillerie du Reserve
AdN


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 6:56 pm 
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Posts: 6156
First, thank you for buying the game. It was my best design by far because of course I have put out two other titles (the 1809 games) and have been listening for years to what the guys have to say on the game system. And John did a TON of updates on the engine for this game. Small things that probably wont get appreciated by the reviewers like a larger Jump Map and more levels of terrain so I could make a map that best fit the 10 meter contour differences of my topo maps.

To answer your comments:

Changing the PDT file to 15 mins is not hard (see below).

I am into turn 225 with a playtester and yes, it takes some time to get into the battle. In this recent patch I put out a alternate campaign to the large Scharnhort Plan campaign which has the first scenario as much shorter (200 turns or so but you are closer).

For a future patch I will have historical scenarios and variants for the various days of the campaign. Basically I will have one for the 12th and 13th since the 14th was pretty much covered in the Short Campaign.

What has to be done to convert the scenarios to 15 min. moves is this:

1. The PDT file entry "10" in the second line would be changed from:

9
French First
0
6 50 18 0 0 1
<b>10 30</b>

to:

9
French First
0
6 50 18 0 0 1
<b>15 30</b>

Never do this with the files that came with the game. Make a copy of the PDT file that the .scn file uses. Or basically make a copy of all four of the PDT files that came with the game and then rename them to be something else. This filename then would be copied in place of the original .pdt file name in a COPY of the .scn file on the appropriate line. Here is an example of an existing .scn file line:

7
#05a_2. The Battles of Jena-Auerstedt - Dual Map
1806 10 14 7 0 0 0 1 56
3 8 10
3 8 10
4000 6000 8000 10000
Jena-Auerstedt.map
Campaign_1806.oob
<b>Jena_10_FrFirst.pdt</b>

change the .pdt file name to be the name for the new COPY of the PDT file and then Save As the .scn file to be something else. Again, never modify the original files that came with the game. It will get overwritten if we put out an update with an updated file of that name.

Here is how the new .scn file might look:

7
#05a_2. The Battles of Jena-Auerstedt - Dual Map-15
1806 10 14 7 0 0 0 1 56
3 8 10
3 8 10
4000 6000 8000 10000
Jena-Auerstedt.map
Campaign_1806.oob
<b>Mod_Jena_10_FrFirst.pdt</b>

The weather lines can be left as is.

Then:

2. Each reinforcement entry could be left alone OR those that use the 10 minute entry (10,20,40) could be changed to something like 15, 30, 45. The downside is that you are going to have some crowding of units.

Finally, copy the sce

Ok, that covers the conversion which is not hard. Now the downsides:

1. The 10 minute move allows you to stop the blitz a bit. Along with the No Melee Elimination rule you have 1/2 more time to deal with per turn. You get 6 turns instead of 4. What does this translate to? Basically the French cavalry that would charge 7 hexes in the last title I did now only charge 5 hexes in open terrain. Thus they have to get closer to start up the charge and hit something. Follow up distance is 3 hexes instead of 4. Thus the total amount of hexes cavalry will move in a charge (possible if they keep on winning) is 8 hexes rather than 11. Now that means that your units have more reaction time to square, move back, take cover, etc. In the game we dont have the ability to square up as of yet but really, I didnt use this formula of 10 min. moves with that in mind. It was mainly to cause the attacker to set up his attack closer in.

2. The Defender gets in more shots with a 10 min. move. This also means that the game can see MORE losses as a result as I retained the same firepower values BUT a prudent Attacker will just stay out of range until he starts up his attack. And likewise a Prussian Defender may pull back a bit to get out of the longer French artillery range. Thus the turns in total can lead to MORE losses but the players have to know when to pull out of range. In the LONG run it helps the Defender as he has just that extra bit of time to fire which might cause an Attacker to Disorder (1/3 value for attacker in melees which is a deterant enough to stop him from attacking for the most part). So in the 15 min. move the Defender is at a slight disadvantage. His guns can get run over easier, etc.

3. Disorder recovery in the older games for the French seemed to be automatic. Now with the ratings and morale changes it should take longer to recover BUT there are more turns for chance of recovery. Thus the end result should be that those formations that are out of command control may take longer to recover. And with the movement rates reduced this means that units may remain out of action longer. But in the end it may just be a wash. However, for time sake the units probably recover FASTER than in the past in that there are more command tests. This rewards the player that keeps his units in command control and penalizes those that dont. In short the Allies may be hurt more from this than the French but the latter will rout more often I am thinking BUT rally back faster due to better Leadership ratings. So the morale issue was also taken into account when using the 10 min. move.

I understand how some of you may not like the 10 min. move but in those big scenarios to save time on your moves just get your corps in a long line and use the Alt-Drag method of moving entire strings of units to save on time. When you do this just select the HEX and not any of the units. The entire line of units, no matter what formation affiliation, will move right along in a big konga line.

Thanks for the feedback. As I work on my fourth title I am really listening to what you guys have to say. The more I hear the more I will be able to determine how I will go for the next ones.

Our testers like the 10 min. moves for the most part once they got used to it. For the shorter battles they were very useful. For medium sized battles still ok. The bigger ones it may seem tedious but in the end you will be happy that the Attacker didnt run your line over because with a 10 min. move he has to be closer and thus will take more fire from your units.

Other things I am pondering are an alternate set of scenarios that uses an OB whereby the 2 gun units are merged into larger units. I still will stick with a 4-6 gun battery where the OB called for it but those smaller bn. guns and in some cases Prussian batteries will get merged into one unit to save on march space.

Bill Peters
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 2:36 am 
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Location: TN, USA
I like the ten minute turn. The change to the cavalry squadron as a parent unit is a great change as well. Sure, there are alot of units to move, but I believe it's a better representation than moving the large squadrons from the parent regiment in the other HPS titles. Additionally, the slower night movements are more realistic. One area that seems to have changed is that when skirmishers are reunited with their parent battalion any fatigue they accrued also transfers to the parent battalion. I don't recall this happening in the other HPS titles and is a negative in my opinion.

Lieutenant Jeff Mathes
3. Ligne Regiment
1. Brigade 16. Division
V Corps
L'Armée du Rhin


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 6:42 am 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Jeff Mathes</i>
<br />I like the ten minute turn. The change to the cavalry squadron as a parent unit is a great change as well. Sure, there are alot of units to move, but I believe it's a better representation than moving the large squadrons from the parent regiment in the other HPS titles. Additionally, the slower night movements are more realistic. One area that seems to have changed is that when skirmishers are reunited with their parent battalion any fatigue they accrued also transfers to the parent battalion. I don't recall this happening in the other HPS titles and is a negative in my opinion.

Lieutenant Jeff Mathes
3. Ligne Regiment
1. Brigade 16. Division
V Corps
L'Armée du Rhin

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Jeff - we talked about this as well as the MP thing where you could send out a skirmisher - see if you bump into anything - then recombine it and the BN. could then make a full move.

While the latter may not impact your sense of gaming as the former does they both are important to have BUT perhaps we could go to this:

If you recombine a skirmisher/cav platoon with the parent bn/squadron and it has a higher fatigue then perhaps you could add in a fraction of the fatigue to the parent.

Example:

The 1 Sqdn/9 Hussars sends out a platoon. The parent has no fatigue. The platoon gets beat in a melee and take 250 points of fatigue. When it recombines the parent would have 125 points of fatigue.

The current rule that if the parent has more fatigue than the detachment still holds - no additional fatigue would be added in.

All I can say for now is just do what I do: dont recombine the detachment into the parent. I use such units to garrison towns. They then recover their fatigue and later on I recombine them. 'bout all I can tell you for now.

Bill Peters
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 7:12 am 
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Thanks Bill, appreciate the detailed explanation. Also appreciate the in-depth thought and analysis that obviously goes into your game design efforts.

I understand how to change the PDT to 15 minute turns, but wouldn't that also require changes to the various unit movement allowances? Just thinking that obviously a unit can move further in 15 minutes than it could in 10, and that should be reflected in the movement allowances. Or will changing the turn duration automatically change those allowances?

Lt. Tom Bridges
5/3e Artillerie à Cheval
1er Corps, Artillerie du Reserve
AdN


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 10:55 am 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Tom Bridges</i>
<br />Thanks Bill, appreciate the detailed explanation. Also appreciate the in-depth thought and analysis that obviously goes into your game design efforts.

I understand how to change the PDT to 15 minute turns, but wouldn't that also require changes to the various unit movement allowances? Just thinking that obviously a unit can move further in 15 minutes than it could in 10, and that should be reflected in the movement allowances. Or will changing the turn duration automatically change those allowances?

Lt. Tom Bridges
5/3e Artillerie à Cheval
1er Corps, Artillerie du Reserve
AdN


<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Sorry Tom, yes the MP allowances could be taken from the Eckmuhl game or whichever you like (NRC or Waterloo for instance).

If you need to know which lines those are let me know.

Also increase the charge continuation value to 4. Can help you with that one too.

Bill Peters
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 3:13 pm 
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Posts: 218
Location: TN, USA
Bill,
I like the idea of adding a fraction of the fatigue suffered by a skirmisher to the parent battalion's fatigue when it rejoins. Adding the entire skirmisher fatigue amount is a heavy penalty when the skirmisher has a high fatigue count.

With regard to cavalry squadrons, the same could apply but at a higher fatigue cost due to the 50% split.


Lieutenant Jeff Mathes
3. Ligne Regiment
1. Brigade 16. Division
V Corps
L'Armée du Rhin


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 4:46 pm 
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Posts: 64
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Bill...I also like the change to smaller cavalry units, although I regularly find myself being taken by surprise when enemy units unexpectedly combine and charge with much greater concentration than I had anticipated when observing each smaller, seperate enemy unit. I need to be more vigilant! [:0]

From your explanation, it appears that the change to a 10 minute turn was primarily motivated by a desire to influence play balance. Both between opposing armies and between offense and defense. While this is undoubtedly a noble motive, which approach is actually more historically accurate? Were assaults usually set up and launched from the distance a unit could move in 10 or 15 minutes? [?]

Lt. Tom Bridges
5/3e Artillerie à Cheval
1er Corps, Artillerie du Reserve
AdN


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 5:00 pm 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Tom Bridges</i>
<br />Bill...I also like the change to smaller cavalry units, although I regularly find myself being taken by surprise when enemy units unexpectedly combine and charge with much greater concentration than I had anticipated when observing each smaller, seperate enemy unit. I need to be more vigilant! [:0]

From your explanation, it appears that the change to a 10 minute turn was primarily motivated by a desire to influence play balance. Both between opposing armies and between offense and defense. While this is undoubtedly a noble motive, which approach is actually more historically accurate? Were assaults usually set up and launched from the distance a unit could move in 10 or 15 minutes? [?]

Lt. Tom Bridges
5/3e Artillerie à Cheval
1er Corps, Artillerie du Reserve
AdN


<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Well yes, assaults could work in the 15 min. model but the defender is at a distinct disadvantage. Now you get to react in what I consider a more historical format.

Lots of folks want auto-squaring. I am opposed to it as it would mean that the AI makes the decision who and when to square.

I prefer the 10 min. format for this reason. A cavarly advance was a two stage thing anyway. The approach where the defender had a chance to square up and the actual charge which was carried out in the last 100-200 paces I believe of the advance to target (dont quote me guys on those numbers - dont have my books open).

Bill Peters
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 6:07 am 
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Bill,
it would be nice to have a toggle switch for auto-square, like entrenchment is the ACW and WWII games. If you switch a unit on then

(1)if cav is within a certian range, say the charge range, it will autosquare.
(2) or, try to autosquare if charged

I would prefer #2 so that the player still had a choice of whether or not to form a sqaure in your movement phase (as it is now) to respond to a threat but also to be able to tell the unit to try to autosquare if charged.

The toggle would allow you to let some unit s keep their formation it you want them to.

regards,
happy holidays.
Baron Jim Pfluecke


Austrian Kavalry Reserve


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 7:43 am 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Jim Pfleck</i>
<br />Bill,
it would be nice to have a toggle switch for auto-square, like entrenchment is the ACW and WWII games. If you switch a unit on then

(1)if cav is within a certian range, say the charge range, it will autosquare.
(2) or, try to autosquare if charged

I would prefer #2 so that the player still had a choice of whether or not to form a sqaure in your movement phase (as it is now) to respond to a threat but also to be able to tell the unit to try to autosquare if charged.

The toggle would allow you to let some unit s keep their formation it you want them to.

regards,
happy holidays.
Baron Jim Pfluecke


Austrian Kavalry Reserve
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Jim, I can see several things wrong with the autosquare feature.

First, you are retreating from my army. You DONT want to go into square, you want to keep on marching. So all I do is move a cavalry unit near you. You autosquare. Now it takes you half of your movement to get out of square and continue the retreat.

Another scenario, you are on the advance. You dont want to square up as you are trying to run down my rearguard. I put one squadron out to put you in square while the rest of my army goes bye bye.

Next, you are on the advance in an attack. I move a regiment of cavalry near your infantry and they all go into square. Now I open up on you with my artillery and then counterattack you with my columns.

The list is endless. For every good thing that the rule would give it would benefit the other side just as much. I believe it would become a "gamey" option for folks to exploit.

You are welcome to send Mr. Tiller a note via the HPS Support email if you are for it. After all you are advocating an OPTION I believe and not a mandatory rule. Perhaps he would go for it and it wouldnt be the first time it was requested.

Cavalry countercharges and auto-limber fall into this category as well. While I am for them I also see issues with them as well and probably wouldnt want the options ON in my games. To each his own of course ...

Bill Peters
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 5:59 am 
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Bill,
I was not clear. Each unit has a toggle that allows you to set it for auto square or not. So, if you are retreating, turn the toggle off for each unit and if charged they will not square. The default would be "off," so you would manually have to decide which units to enable the autosquare for. And it could be an optional rule.

So, two parts:

(1) a toggle similar to the entrenchment toggle where you can assign the square/no square during your turn.

(2) a set of autosquare parameters. If toggle="on"
then you would have to decide what set of events would trigger the square. IF that unit is not toggled "on" then there will be no check and no autosquare.
regards,

Baron Jim P

Austrian Kavalry Reserve


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 7:35 am 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Jim Pfleck</i>
<br />Bill,
I was not clear. Each unit has a toggle that allows you to set it for auto square or not. So, if you are retreating, turn the toggle off for each unit and if charged they will not square. The default would be "off," so you would manually have to decide which units to enable the autosquare for. And it could be an optional rule.

So, two parts:

(1) a toggle similar to the entrenchment toggle where you can assign the square/no square during your turn.

(2) a set of autosquare parameters. If toggle="on"
then you would have to decide what set of events would trigger the square. IF that unit is not toggled "on" then there will be no check and no autosquare.
regards,

Baron Jim P

Austrian Kavalry Reserve
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Ok, gotcha. Pretty much what you could do in the West Front/East Front/Rising Sun games by Talonsoft with the range and type of targets you could fire at.

John mainly has been going with global settings when he adds in features like this. If you think you can persuade him to code in these kinds of individual settings why not email him at the support email address?

Bill Peters
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 12:15 pm 
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Good idea ;)

Austrian Kavalry Reserve


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 5:19 am 
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Posts: 225
Location: Belgium
I have a problem with the parameter datas :
while I want to open it in the "help" dialog, I reach a blank page ![8)]

Does anybody could tell me which file I may open to find it ?[?]
Many thanks in advance

<font color="orange">Kapitein Valère Bernard </font id="orange">
<font color="red">Anglo-Allied Administrative Adjutant</font id="red">
<font color="orange">Divisie Nederlandsche Kavallerie
I Corps
Anglo-Allied Army
</font id="orange">


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