Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)

I just received Jena today [:p]
I see that the movement capacity by kind of units are (once more) different :
Eckmuhl/Wagram
inf = 22
cav = 28
art = 24
NRC/Waterloo
inf = 10
cav = 14
art = 10
Jena
inf = 16
cav = 21
art = 16

These figures compared with costs of movement on pike :
Eckmuhl/Wagram = 2
NRC/Waterloo = 1
Jena = 2
(all in clear weather, ordered, in column, same altitude level, last update)

I noticed so that the range of the respective units are different too.
<u>Eckmuhl/Wagram (1809)</u>
inf = 11 hex on pike
cav = 14 hex on pike
art = 12 hex on pike
<u>NRC/Waterloo (1812/1815)</u>
inf = 10 hex on pike
cav = 14 hex on pike
art = 10 hex on pike
<u>Jena (1806)</u>
inf = 8 hex on pike
cav = 10 hex on pike
art = 8 hex on pike

Why ? [?]
Unless I missed something...[:I], sorry in advance [;)]

<font color="orange">Kapitein Valère Bernard </font id="orange">
<font color="red">Anglo-Allied Administrative Adjutant</font id="red">
<font color="orange">Divisie Nederlandsche Kavallerie
I Corps
Anglo-Allied Army
</font id="orange">

First off, compare the time scales between the games *grin* that's where you will figure out why Jena is a bit of a "sore thumb". The idea with that is to reduce movement to make the battles a bit more deliberate.

Aside from that, let's just say that the design teams have a difference of opinion.

Feldmarschall Freiherr Gary McClellan
Generalissimus Imperial Austrian Army
Portner Grenadier Battallion
Allied Coalition C-in-C

would turn times have something to do with it ?



<center>
[img]</center>
<center>Monsieur le Marechal Baron John Corbin
Duc de Paive
Commanding the Division de Cavalerie de la Jeune Garde
NWC President</center>

Yes Gary, time turns in Jena are 10 minutes long rather than 15 in the others.
That mean that men can march :
48 hex per hour in 1806 (Jena)
44 h/h in 1809 (Eck/Wagram)
40 h/h in 1812 and later (NRC/Waterloo)

Seems to be normal as they're becoming older ...[:o)][:D]

<font color="orange">Kapitein Valère Bernard </font id="orange">
<font color="red">Anglo-Allied Administrative Adjutant</font id="red">
<font color="orange">Divisie Nederlandsche Kavallerie
I Corps
Anglo-Allied Army
</font id="orange">

I've always felt that the time scale should be tailored to fit the scenario.

10 minute turns might be fine on a small or medium sized map, but will mean a lot of turns just marching for say a large 3 day scenario.

so surely 20 minute (or even 30 minute) turns would be better for the larger scenarios where marching is often the main (or only) activity?

At least players have the option of modifying the pdt file to alter the time scale (and movement rate) before starting a game. But it would make sense for the scenario designers to have done this, instead of assuming that all players have sufficient time and inclination (or patience) to re-fight the larger actions in 10 or 15 minute turns.

Unfortunately, I suspect that adopting a standard "one size fits all" 10 (or even 15) minute turn may discourage some players from undertaking the larger scenarios. However, if there were 30 minute <i>variants</i> this would cut down the number of turns considerable (eg. 60 turns rather than 180 x 10 minute or 120 x 15 minute turns) and make it far more practical to play these scenarios.


Maj. Rich White
4th Cavalry Brigade
Cavalry Corps
Anglo-Allied Army

Gentlemen,

I'm currently playing a Jena match against a Russian officer "The Russians are Coming! (*00a_3_Russians.scn)"

It has been moving rather slowly for a 524 turn game!

But it is VERY interesting in a tactical sense. I can actually run away from an ambush and not get caught (if I recognise what is happening and leave VERY early) - I think he has has made himself aware of reinforcement hexes (as I would).

It does seem to favour the defence, but as we're only 14 turns into the game, that is not totally fair. Mind you, the defence (in these computer moderated games needs all the help it can get).

That aside, I don't know enough (yet) to critique the game too much...
Regards

GdD Mark Oakford

All I can say is this - the PDT files are editable and you can change them to fit your taste...so if you and your opponent prefer one set over the other then edit away. With 5 games in the series now and different approaches modeled there's no way we'll ever see an "official" standard among the games.

Maréchal Hamilton, Baron d'Barbancon
21st Division
VII Corps, ADR

Saxon Leib-Garde, de la Jeune Garde, Garde Impériale

I don't have a problem with each game having different parameters. There are always differences of opinion and interpretation and I'd rather each designer went with what feels right within the context of a particular game rather than have one set of values imposed just for the sake of consistency. With each game being free to be different experimentation is possible and comparison with the other games follows which ultimately leads to the games evolving and improving. Just my 2c.

<center>[url="http://homepage.ntlworld.com/a.r.barlow/Napoleonic/nap.htm"]Lieutenant Colonel Antony Barlow[/url]
~ [url="http://www.geocities.com/anglo_allied_army_stats/Anglo_Allied_Army_Cavalry_Corps.htm"]2nd British (Union) Brigade, Anglo-Allied Cavalry Corps[/url] ~
~ [url="http://www.geocities.com/militaireacademie/dragoons.html"]4th (Royal Irish) Dragoon Guards[/url] ~
</center>

Very good said Anthony I fully agree!

Hauptmann Ola Berli
IR 18 d'Aspre
II Armee Korps
Imperial Austrian Army

Guys - I also want to say that please dont read that Rich, Charlie and myself are arguing over our values. Rich and I spent some time discussing the values and his test team also did the same. There is no RIFT in the team. Just a difference of opinion and John, Rich and I are all on the same page about this issue.

If you decide to modify the file I suggest you make a copy of the file.

Note: noone is going to be totally happy with what we put out. The gun values, MP rates, squadron breakdown, etc. are not going to make everyone happy. I have basically tossed out any idea of "the perfect game" mentality and instead just go with a design concept that makes the most sense.

Now I DO plan on putting out 15 min. PDT files on my website. You can download them along with an alternate set of the basic main folder set of Scenarios (in alternate form) very soon. I will not be redoing all of the .scn files in the large campaign. I do plan on doing the shorter campaigns. Eventually I will put up an alternate campaign pack for the Scharnhorst Plan campaign. Again, watch my website for an announcement and I also will put something up here too.

No, I wont adjust the times in the scenarios for reinforcements or release times. I am doing this as a favor to you guys that like 15 minute turns. If you want to change all of the reinforcement times in all 400+ scenarios be my guest![:D]

The 10 minute turn is a bit tedious in LONG games but frankly I really enjoy not having my clock cleaned anymore. For us guys that dont rank up to Paco, Jeff, Tomasz, its nice to have that extra bit of time to react. I also think its more historical but ... [:p]

Anyway, I am sensitive to your comments and know the frustrations ... but after 230 turns in my game with Bill Peterson I have no regrets. Paco and Dean are further along than us and also like the new system too.

Note: for my next release I MAY put in 15 min. versions using the Eckmuhl/New PDT file format as a bonus. That is if you are NICE!!![8D]
And eat all of your food and clean your plate! [:o)]

Bill Peters
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]

Hi ..
Just to say..Paco and I have been playing the Large Russians are coming scn .for about 6 months now..maybe out a little but about that time..We are on turn 275..

I am playing the Prussians..And Paco.you know the French...

Now at first yes it was slow with lots of turns just moving..But i found it a lot of fun just trying to get my men together ..for one large fight with the French at Jena....

After a day Half the Prussians had got to were i wanted them..thinking that if the French came up the main road to Jena he would be out numbered..

Man was i wrong..The French hit on two sides..with the ground i picked i did not leave myself with much room to move my men around..So a rout started...

At the end of that days battle..The French won Jena..What was left of my Army moved north...A nights march just to get them away and to the other half of my Army..

Yes it cost the French .I think with a loss of a Corps..But they still came of better......

After that battle..There has not been a turn with out any fighting...Each turn there is so much to do ....

So what i am saying is..Once you have done the first day of marching things pick up and you will wish you had more turns ...

Myself i love the Jena Game...But i am a player that likes to play large scn..and also think with Jena both sides have a great chance to Win..[;)]

<font color="red">Maréchal</font id="red">
<font color="red">BEECHAM</font id="red"> Commandant 1ème Division de Cuirassiers,
1 Corps Res Cav,ADN.

Prince d` Istria et Comte d` Arles La Jeune Garde

"Toujours féroce,jamais étourdi"

Man it is therefore I have ordered it a Good Game [8D]

Hauptmann Ola Berli
IR 18 d'Aspre
II Armee Korps
Imperial Austrian Army

Mssrs.,

To expand briefly on Dean's comments, yes, the run-up to contact in the Monster scenario WAS tedious. Once the fighting started, however, the 10 minute turns had a dramatic, and IMO beneficial, effect on game play. Bear in mind that this game bagan during beta testing, before the NME option was added to the game engine. Nonetheless, the slower pace enabled a badly outnumbered Lannes to conduct an effective fighting withdrawal from a truly vicious ambush and hold out until help arrived. [B)] When the shoe was on the other foot, Dean's Prussians were able to mount a similar, fighting withdrawal to rejoin the rest of their army.

IMO, the biggest drawback of the HPS games to date had been the system's inability to effectively model the classic rear-guard action. A numerically superior attacker could simply pin the defender with a series of disordering attacks while the balance of his forces enveloped and overwhelmed the beleguared defenders. In the Guards Challenge, for instance, I watched helplessly as two Austrian corps were ground down, <i>en detaille</i>, by three French corps [xx(]. With the 10 minute turn, however, a defender is able to effectively trade space for time given reasonable terrain in which to do so.

Regards,

Paco

<i>Maréchal</i> M. Francisco Palomo
<i>Prince d'Essling, Grande Duc d'Abrantes et
Comte de Marseille
Commandant - Division de Cavalerie de la Vieille Garde </i>

Guys - there IS a way to accelerate play but you have to be very careful and upon mutual agreement between the players.

Mainly, you can use a PDT file that uses 30 min. turns. Accelerate the MP rates, change the 10 to a 30 (use a copy of the file of course), leave the movement costs alone.

Voila, you can move 3x as fast.

Now the catch is .... you all should mutually agree not to make use of it as a blitz weapon. Once an enemy comes into within 30 hexes visibility you should shift back to the stock file.

You can even create a batch file that will switch the files for you. And of course make this your ONLY game you are playing OR:

1. Copy the .scn file you want to play (for instance the Russians are Coming one).

2. Copy the stock PDT file that the scenario uses. Rename it to be different from the stock name.

3. Enter in the name of the copy of the stock PDT file in the .scn file.

4. Create a copy of the new PDT file. Change the entries for the MP rates to be 3x and the turn time amount to be 30. DONT USE THIS FOR NIGHT TURNS!

This should allow you to be able to accelerate your turns. Again, just trying to help you guys out. Remember to terminate the use of the 30 min. PDT file once you make some sort of contact. I would suggest that if you bump into something that you slow down the movement of your units in a gentlemanly fashion. Meaning dont take advantage of the situation.

If you need a copy of the PDT file let me know.

Bill Peters
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]