Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)

Hi all,

why removing untis during battle from map is profitable (costless)? I'm playing Jena and I surrounded few units. My opponent removed them from map after firing from batteries. If he remove all army he can win the battle or maybe if I take all objectives w'll be draw! This is NOSNENSE! I think removing untis from map should be costly. Historical if I good remember retreat was not vistory? That's true?

<center><font color="orange"><h4> Marechal Zbyszek Pietras
1er Regiment de Chasseurs a Cheval, Vieille Garde
16th Division V Corps Armee du Rhin</font id="orange">
<font color="orange">Duc de Danzig, Comte de Bourges</font id="orange"></h4></center>

Actually the way that the VPs work the best that the Prussians can hope for is a Draw or Minor Victory by doing this. In the campaign it was in the best interests of the Prussians to pull back.

I chose to not allow for a Minor French victory due to battlefield evacuation as in fact ... there was no battle if an army chose to withdrawl from the field.

Didnt help morale out much but the total destruction of the Prussian-Saxon army wasnt much of a morale booster either! [:p]

All in all it works out best in the campaign or for the Historical situation on the large Jena map.

Now if you want to play a large scenario that doesnt have exit hexes (stand-alone battle) then pick the "Here Come the Russians" scenario. Its rather balanced - relatively similar forces - and you will enjoy the prospect as the French of facing an opponent that will have an incentive to fight.

For the long battles folks can put in a Termination Bid if they like. Or they can continue to fight it out.

I use the Term Bid if the battle is going to bring about no favorable decision and fighting it out would be a waste of time.

Bill Peters
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]

thanks Bill for info about other scenarios which are more balanced - we are playing large historical scenario (above 500 turns).


<center><font color="orange"><h4> Marechal Zbyszek Pietras
1er Regiment de Chasseurs a Cheval, Vieille Garde
16th Division V Corps Armee du Rhin</font id="orange">
<font color="orange">Duc de Danzig, Comte de Bourges</font id="orange"></h4></center>

Just to clarify (muddy? [;)]) the situation --

Were these surrounded units that were withdrawn in the middle of the map or trapped on the map edge?

Captain Sean Turner
1er Dragons
2ème Division de Dragons
Ier Corps de Réserve de Cavalerie
l'Armee du Nord

on the egde of map of course - maybe they had a way to escape (outside map) but ...

<center><font color="orange"><h4> Marechal Zbyszek Pietras
1er Regiment de Chasseurs a Cheval, Vieille Garde
16th Division V Corps Armee du Rhin</font id="orange">
<font color="orange">Duc de Danzig, Comte de Bourges</font id="orange"></h4></center>

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Zbyszek</i>
<br />on the egde of map of course - maybe they had a way to escape (outside map) but ...

<center><font color="orange"><h4> Marechal Zbyszek Pietras
1er Regiment de Chasseurs a Cheval, Vieille Garde
16th Division V Corps Armee du Rhin</font id="orange">
<font color="orange">Duc de Danzig, Comte de Bourges</font id="orange"></h4></center>
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Were they using one of the Exit VP hexes? I see no reason why a unit cannot leave the map if its on one of the Exit hexes whether its in a ZOC or not.

As to balancing ... this scenario IS balanced. Eventually the numbers of the French are going to wipe out the Prussians. It a 20,000-30,000 man advantage. The exit hexes are for the Prussian army to use once they realize that the fight is getting out of hand.

Early on the Prussians have the advantage. If the French stick their corps too far forward early on they will see them destroyed. Thus it is possible for the Prussian player to win but he is going to have to play a very good game.

If the French waits for his troops to come up then the numbers are going to be on his side. Exiting the map was the only option I could give the Prussians (and note the French exit hexes too) so that they could retire without losing an entire army due to a dumb rule that you cant exit an army.

And I dont go for the idea that the French automatically win a Minor Victory if the Prussians leave the "battlefield" or that it bumps them up a victory level. Even for the stand-alone battle (the campaign starts out with a similar situation) if the Prussians can inflict a big loss on the French and then get off the board its possible that they can win a Major Victory. Its going to be hard but its possible.

Bill Peters
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Were they using one of the Exit VP hexes?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

no - units were remove not from Exit VP hexes. They were removed from right side of the map.


<center><font color="orange"><h4> Marechal Zbyszek Pietras
1er Regiment de Chasseurs a Cheval, Vieille Garde
16th Division V Corps Armee du Rhin</font id="orange">
<font color="orange">Duc de Danzig, Comte de Bourges</font id="orange"></h4></center>

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Zbyszek</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Were they using one of the Exit VP hexes?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

no - units were remove not from Exit VP hexes. They were removed from right side of the map.


<center><font color="orange"><h4> Marechal Zbyszek Pietras
1er Regiment de Chasseurs a Cheval, Vieille Garde
16th Division V Corps Armee du Rhin</font id="orange">
<font color="orange">Duc de Danzig, Comte de Bourges</font id="orange"></h4></center>
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Have to agree with you. That is usually not legal to do in games when units are surrounded by ZOCs.

Did you and your opponent agree on this before you started the game? If not then as usual its anything goes in a game.

All rules on unit usage should be agreed on prior to starting up a game. Otherwise it leads to misunderstanding.

In this sceneario units should only exit the map at Exit VP hexes. That was my intention of having them in the first place. Now historically units did run for Erfurt but that town IS on the map. Figure that if the Allied army is falling apart that its a French Major Victory.

You aught to ask your opponent to let you count those as VPs if in fact you agreed that nothing could exit the map other than at a Exit VP hex.

Bill Peters
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]

MOE3 Tournament rules dealt with this situation:

Miscellaneous Rule #7: Units may be voluntarily removed from the map board without penalty unless those units would be isolated with zone of control (if zoc extended beyond the map edge).

Use of these rules should be discussed in advance.

FM Sir 'Muddy' Jones, KG
2nd Life Guards, Household Cavalry

sir,

I can agree for removing units from map but if they don't start fighting. In this case my opponet start fighting (firing from batteries) and my units take casualities. When my troops were close to enemy he removed they from map. It's fair play? My troops can take casualities and my opponent not?


<center><font color="orange"><h4> Marechal Zbyszek Pietras
1er Regiment de Chasseurs a Cheval, Vieille Garde
16th Division V Corps Armee du Rhin</font id="orange">
<font color="orange">Duc de Danzig, Comte de Bourges</font id="orange"></h4></center>

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bill Peters</i>
<br />...The exit hexes are for the Prussian army to use once they realize that the fight is getting out of hand.

...If the French waits for his troops to come up then the numbers are going to be on his side. Exiting the map was the only option I could give the Prussians (and note the French exit hexes too) so that they could retire without losing an entire army due to a dumb rule that you cant exit an army.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Bill, I agree with all you are saying here. However, I am playing the <b>Scharnhorst's Plan - Alternate Version Campaign</b> with the shorter first Jena scenario. This scenario doesn't have the exit hexes that exist in the larger version but I take it that the situation is the same in that the Prussians can still legitimately exit the map once the French threaten to overwhelm them. Is that so? The campaign briefings certainly suggest it. If so should this scenario also have exit hexes to legitimize any exit strategy or can the Prussians exit wherever they like? Without them I would probably aim to exit somewhere in the northeast quarter of the map to keep to the intentions of the campaign.

<center>[url="http://homepage.ntlworld.com/a.r.barlow/Napoleonic/nap.htm"]Lieutenant Colonel Antony Barlow[/url]
~ [url="http://www.geocities.com/anglo_allied_army_stats/Anglo_Allied_Army_Cavalry_Corps.htm"]2nd British (Union) Brigade, Anglo-Allied Cavalry Corps[/url] ~
~ [url="http://www.geocities.com/militaireacademie/dragoons.html"]4th (Royal Irish) Dragoon Guards[/url] ~
</center>

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Antony Barlow</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bill Peters</i>
<br />...The exit hexes are for the Prussian army to use once they realize that the fight is getting out of hand.

...If the French waits for his troops to come up then the numbers are going to be on his side. Exiting the map was the only option I could give the Prussians (and note the French exit hexes too) so that they could retire without losing an entire army due to a dumb rule that you cant exit an army.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Bill, I agree with all you are saying here. However, I am playing the <b>Scharnhorst's Plan - Alternate Version Campaign</b> with the shorter first Jena scenario. This scenario doesn't have the exit hexes that exist in the larger version but I take it that the situation is the same in that the Prussians can still legitimately exit the map once the French threaten to overwhelm them. Is that so? The campaign briefings certainly suggest it. If so should this scenario also have exit hexes to legitimize any exit strategy or can the Prussians exit wherever they like? Without them I would probably aim to exit somewhere in the northeast quarter of the map to keep to the intentions of the campaign.

<center>[url="http://homepage.ntlworld.com/a.r.barlow/Napoleonic/nap.htm"]Lieutenant Colonel Antony Barlow[/url]
~ [url="http://www.geocities.com/anglo_allied_army_stats/Anglo_Allied_Army_Cavalry_Corps.htm"]2nd British (Union) Brigade, Anglo-Allied Cavalry Corps[/url] ~
~ [url="http://www.geocities.com/militaireacademie/dragoons.html"]4th (Royal Irish) Dragoon Guards[/url] ~
</center>
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I think the scenario must have the exit hexes included particuarly for the French or there is no way for the French to avoid a major defeat if the Prussians immeadiatley withdraw. Don't the French begin that scenario with a major defeat? I am playing a scenario with Jon Thayer just like this one, in fact it may be the same one and there are no exit hexes included for either side in our game. He started with a major defeat. I am not going to withdraw from the map in order to give him a sporting chance to win.[:D]


Major General Ed Blackburn
Commanding Second Div, II Corps, AAA
3rd Bn / 1st Regiment of Foot Guards

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by zinkyusa</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Antony Barlow</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bill Peters</i>
<br />...The exit hexes are for the Prussian army to use once they realize that the fight is getting out of hand.

...If the French waits for his troops to come up then the numbers are going to be on his side. Exiting the map was the only option I could give the Prussians (and note the French exit hexes too) so that they could retire without losing an entire army due to a dumb rule that you cant exit an army.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Bill, I agree with all you are saying here. However, I am playing the <b>Scharnhorst's Plan - Alternate Version Campaign</b> with the shorter first Jena scenario. This scenario doesn't have the exit hexes that exist in the larger version but I take it that the situation is the same in that the Prussians can still legitimately exit the map once the French threaten to overwhelm them. Is that so? The campaign briefings certainly suggest it. If so should this scenario also have exit hexes to legitimize any exit strategy or can the Prussians exit wherever they like? Without them I would probably aim to exit somewhere in the northeast quarter of the map to keep to the intentions of the campaign.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I think the scenario must have the exit hexes included particuarly for the French or there is no way for the French to avoid a major defeat if the Prussians immeadiatley withdraw. Don't the French begin that scenario with a major defeat? I am playing a scenario with Jon Thayer just like this one, in fact it may be the same one and there are no exit hexes included for either side in our game. He started with a major defeat. I am not going to withdraw from the map in order to give him a sporting chance to win.[:D]<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Ed, This one starts with the French on 0 points and a minor defeat. They need 2000 points to get to a draw and 4000 for minor victory. There are 5 objective hexes totalling 1300 victory points. If the Prussians manage to withdraw without loss then they will get a minor victory and a favourable 2nd scenario. If they stay and fight for a while though, or the French catch them and inflict losses then a draw is possible for the French and even a minor victory if the French can keep the Prussians fighting or outmanoeuvre them. I don't think that exit hexes would alter the result so much as legitimize the Prussian option to retreat that is suggested in the scenario briefing. I suppose things could go badly for the Prussians if they get sucked into a prolongued battle or if the French catch them out of position.

<center>[url="http://homepage.ntlworld.com/a.r.barlow/Napoleonic/nap.htm"]Lieutenant Colonel Antony Barlow[/url]
~ [url="http://www.geocities.com/anglo_allied_army_stats/Anglo_Allied_Army_Cavalry_Corps.htm"]2nd British (Union) Brigade, Anglo-Allied Cavalry Corps[/url] ~
~ [url="http://www.geocities.com/militaireacademie/dragoons.html"]4th (Royal Irish) Dragoon Guards[/url] ~
</center>

I guess the one Jon and I are playing is different then Antony. I'm [:D]sending the file to Bill tonight so he can take a look at it.



Major General Ed Blackburn
Commanding Second Div, II Corps, AAA
3rd Bn / 1st Regiment of Foot Guards

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Zbyszek</i>
<br />sir,

I can agree for removing units from map but if they don't start fighting. In this case my opponet start fighting (firing from batteries) and my units take casualities. When my troops were close to enemy he removed they from map. It's fair play? My troops can take casualities and my opponent not?


<center><font color="orange"><h4> Marechal Zbyszek Pietras
1er Regiment de Chasseurs a Cheval, Vieille Garde
16th Division V Corps Armee du Rhin</font id="orange">
<font color="orange">Duc de Danzig, Comte de Bourges</font id="orange"></h4></center>
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

This is something you need to fix with your opponent. Not HPS. We are not in the wrong in this case. Figure this out with your Prussian friend. Done with this discussion.

Bill Peters
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]