Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)

The Rhine Tavern

*   NWC   NWC Staff   NWC Rules   NWC (DoR) Records   About Us   Send Email Inquiry to NWC

*   La Grande Armée Quartier Général    La Grande Armée Officer Records    Join La Grande Armée

*   Allied Coalition   Allied Officers   Join Coalition

*   Coalition Armies:   Austro-Prussian-Swedish Army   Anglo Allied Army (AAA)   Imperial Russian Army

 

Forums:    ACWGC    CCC     Home:    ACWGC    CCC
It is currently Mon May 12, 2025 8:05 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 8 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2007 5:26 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 6:34 am
Posts: 3603
Location: Republic of Galveston Texas USA
In MinFgs games its 30-40% rules in the Hp systems its the points systems Miniture games there over and won because of the 30-40 % rule just throwning it out to see how others feel.

Col de Art 6/3 II Corps AN Marbot CS


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2007 7:01 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2001 12:13 am
Posts: 590
Location: USA
There is certainly room for some form of an "army morale" system where losses will cause an army to "break" ending the battle. That said, if you wanted to do that right, you'd want to add more than losses into that equation.

That said, this is one point where the Campaign Game is stronger than the Single Battle, since, other than the last battle, the Campaign truly does discourage you from taking excessive losses, since you'll need those troops next time.

Feldmarschall Freiherr Gary McClellan
Generalissimus Imperial Austrian Army
Portner Grenadier Bn
Allied Coalition C-in-C


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2007 4:25 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 6:34 am
Posts: 3603
Location: Republic of Galveston Texas USA
On each Batt. there's a strength if the unit is below 30% or 40% then they are to return to the line and can not advance. Why is this not done in the games if we want to keep on fighting to the death which I belive not even the Russian who die were they stand would have done in some games it goes on till the last man standing and in some games the below strenght Batt would attack and adavance is this Bon I say nay and I belivied that it would be better games with a 30 40 rule played by thoses that agree the others will go on killing till the last man and win by points. 30% Allied 40 % French,Here are some rules that I think would make the games more real to that era It just my thoughts no more no less it might help new players and keep the old dogs honest. Gentlemen,

How much time I play games in NWC so much as well I hear arguments "pro" and "contra" House Rules
owing to artificiality and imperfection of them. Moreover, those get various renditions for some subjective and
objective causes usually.

I guess, the only Rules we have to use are: REALISM/or just common sense wherever the previous one is
impossible to perform/ and HISTORICITY based on our knowledge of the subject. Each of us is an
enthusiastic scholar of the Napoleonic epoch, and each of us has a right to expect those above from our
opponents and their actions. Let us to repose on that.

If we'll go this way, we get definition with many "greasy" matters such as:

I. Troops in Marching Order

An HPS game hex symbolizes the roadway length of 100m.

According to the regulations, each man occupied 0.5m in the rank and 0.3 in the file, each horse occupied 1m
in the rank and 2m in the file, a gun carriage with limber and team occupied 18m, and an ammunition wagon
with its team occupied 15m of road length, approximately. In my calculations, I take into consideration all
intervals between any parts of March or Battle order.

1. Infantry.

During road/street marches, Infantry formed a column by section (3 ranks, 6 files) or double-section (3 ranks,
12 files), if the road/street is wide enough (6m at least).

Maximal possible number in one hex: on a byroad - up to 450 men, on turnpike - up to 860
men.

2. Cavalry.

They usually formed a column of four/three/two files moving by double ranks, they also could make the files
double on a wide roadway.

Maximal possible number in one hex are: on a byroad up to 100 horses, on turnpike up to 200
horses.

3. Artillery.

They formed a company column one-by-one with all guns plus limbers at the front, followed by other battery
vehicles: ammunition caissons (of 1st, 2nd, 3rd Line) and equipment; where roads allowed, a double column
was used, but guns always grouped together at the front.

The maximal possible number in one hex is: a single column of 8-guns battery with 1st Line
Caissons (at least) up to 260m, a column of 6-guns battery up to 200m. So, we must to leave two
empty hexes after each 8-guns battery symbol and one empty hex after each 6-guns battery symbol
on byroads, and one empty hex after each 8-guns battery symbol on turnpikes.

Infantry and cavalry units in Marching Order must not make any stacks on their roadway. Exceptions:
1Btn/or Sqn+1Battery; 1Btn/or Sqn+1Train.

Cavalry must make marching, maneuvering and fighting ONLY by squadrons and not by one
regiment symbol.




Brigade / Divisional Leader must to head any marching, maneuvering or attacking moves of the main
body of his troops at the beginning of the moves, at least.

This way could help us to perform realism of the situation, to make corrections in the game space and time
because in the reality any loss of intervals between the marching units could make a state of chaos, order
and time loosing. It was inadmissible. That's why the special Staff - or Quartermaster - officers and Guides
kept track of the marching order and inter-units space on roads. It was only permitted when Btn/Sqn let a
battery or train to pass throughout their marching order, and they used waysides in this case.



II. Maximal hex capacity.

An HPS game hex symbolizes the ground area of 100mX100m.

So, how many Inf, Cav or Art could stack in that room on the real Napoleonic battlefields? The principled
question. Therefore, I have researched it very closely. I've looked into my copies of the French, Russian,
Austrian regulations, memoirs etc., and this is my conclusion:

According to the regulations, each man occupied 0.5m in the rank and 0.3 in the file, each horse occupied 1m
in the rank and 2m in the file.

Platoons within one battalion or squadron had to contain an equal number of files, and it was permissible to
transfer men from one company to another in order to make all platoons equal. Only elite companies were
excepted from this rule.

Between 1805 and 1815, it was still typical to form troops in two or even three lines at a distance of 200
- 300m.

Battalions, squadrons and batteries for the second line must be deployed at the minimal distance of 2
hexes (in the third one) from the first line.

Any Infantry, Cavalry, Artillery unit which has lost 50% of their strength was supposed to leave the
battle line.

1. Infantry.

There were four main battle orders at the Napoleonic Wars: the three-rank Line, Opened or Closed
Battalion Column, Battalion Square and Skirmish Order.

a) Line Order was using for the defense predominantly.

Maximal possible number of troops in Line per one hex is 1Btn up to 600 men. If you need to deploy
in line a battalion with more than 600 men, you may do it only next to a smaller battalion or next to an
empty hex. In a village or town, the line may be deployed only in hexes with a single building or
along-street.

b) Opened Battalion Column with full interval (the distance between its parts was equal to the
frontage of a platoon) or half-interval (the distance between its parts was equal to a half of the
frontage of a platoon), was to be used to march infantry through defiles, over the battlefield in the
presence of an enemy, to move one line through another ("passage de lines"). Opened Battalion
Columns had the pretty wide intervals - 20m between each other, and 50m - between two brigades.
The intervals were used by cavalry and artillery for their maneuvering.




Maximal possible number of troops in Opened Columns per one hex is 2 Btns up to 1,700 men.

c) Closed Battalion Column (the Battalion Mass - the Austrian variant) / or Attack Column had to
have the minimal intervals of 3m between its successive parts, they were to march to attack with
bayonets.

Maximal possible number of troops per one hex in Closed Columns is 4 Btns up to 3,500 men.

But those battalions must be of the same regiment because any attack with closed columns had
resulted in great disordering and interfusing of all partakers. After the attack, men were supposed to
retrieve their company or battalion at least.

d) Battalion Square could have 3 or 6- rank deep formation.

Maximal number of troops in Square per one hex is 1 Btn up to 800 men.

e) Skirmish Order.

Light Infantry Skirmishers: when in the skirmish order, the men were to act in pairs/files; an interval
between two men in a pair was to be 1m, the interval between two pairs was to be 2-5m in the "thick
chain" and 5-10m in the "double chain"; in case of the second variant, there was an interval of 50-
60m between the first and the second chain. A whole battalion or regiment could be formed in
skirmisher order, in this case one company / battalion on each flank remained in reserve in closed
order. Men were usually sent to "tirailleurs" by platoons or companies, which relieved each other in
turn.

Light Infantry Skirmishers detached from a battalion were to form a single chain: the Frenchmen up
to 200m, the Russians and Austrians up to 300m, the Prussians and British up to 150m forward of the
main line, according to their regulations. Supports in closed orders were to be placed up to 100m
behind the skirmisher line. The maximal possible number of Light Infantry Skirmishers per one hex is
100 men in the "thick chain".

Line Infantry Battalion Skirmishers: the French Voltijeur company, the British Light company, the
Austrian Schutzen Zugs, the Prussian skirmish platoons of the Third Rank, the Russian Strelki
platoon and selected 10-12 men from the third ranks of each platoon could be deployed for
skirmisher screening of the battalion. They were to fight in groups of 3 men, not in pairs; the
interval between the groups was 5-10m.

Line Infantry Skirmishers detached from a battalion were to form a single chain at a distance of up to
100m forward of their battalion. The maximal possible number of Line Infantry Skirmishers per one
hex is 60 men.

2. Cavalry.

There were two main battle orders for a regiment at the Napoleonic Wars: two-rank Line, Opened or
Closed Squadron Column.

a) Line order / or Battle order / or Charge order was using for charges as a rule. I don't know why,
but HPS games have an option Line Order only for Infantry. This is a big mistake because Line was
the main attack order for Cavalry all time. Any column formation has very weak and vulnerable
point - its unprotected flanks.




Maximal number of troops in Line Order per one hex is 1-2 Sqns up to 200 horses total.

b) Columns.

Opened Column by Platoons / En colonne par pelotons . March order in column by platoons for the
DEFILE and broken terrain movement.

Maximal number of troops in Columns by Platoons per one hex is 1-2 Sqns up to 200 horses total.

Opened Column by Companies / En colonne par divisions. March order in column by companies for
the broken terrain movement.

Maximal number of troops in Columns by Companies per one hex is 1-3 Sqns up to 300 horses total.

Closed Column by Squadrons / En colonne serre. March order in column by closed squadrons for
movements over the battlefield in the presence of an enemy. Closed columns also could be used for
to charge on infantry.

Maximal number of troops in Closed Columns per one hex is 1-4 Sqns up to 800 horses total.
Squadrons in all kind of the columns must be of the same regiment.

All squadrons for the second line must be deployed at the minimal distance of 2 hexes (in the third
one) from the first line.

3. Artillery.

In opened position: intervals between cannons supposed to be 10m - 15m (some sources give 12m -
20m); in closed/fortified position: 6m-8m. Why intervals were so huge? Gun limbers should have
space for speedy maneuvering between and around cannons. Also we have to consider the width of
space that occupied each gun carriage on the position: 3m - 4m. Their limbers were placed at a
distance of 20m behind the pieces, 1st Line caissons of Light pieces were to be placed at 20-30m
behind the limbers one per one gun, and 1st Line caissons of Heavy pieces, which had no
ammunition boxes in limbers, 10m behind the limbers. The rest of caissons - 2nd and 3rd Line -
were placed at 50-100 up to 300m behind a battery.

Maximal quantity of guns per one hex is 8 pieces. Batteries never positioned in two rows.

III. Infantry versus cavalry.

Whatever infantry unit must not bring themselves straightway (!) to whatever enemy cavalry unit
closer than maximal fire range. No exceptions. If only that cavalry unit persists and does not give up
ground in NEXT TURN, then the infantry unit may attack them, it's up to the unit commander.

This way could help us to perform realism of the situation because in reality any cavalry unit, that
even (and especially(!)) get disordered, routed or less than 200 men, could not let enemy to come up
straightway and attack them with fire, but the cavalry could leave and easily outclass the enemy
infantry by using its vantage of speed and maneuverability; moreover, this method could help us to
perform realism of so-called “Appel signalâ€


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2007 5:30 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2002 8:47 pm
Posts: 116
Location: Poland
Your're right with the length in marching order and maximum stack sizes. I have considered a few days ago spliting cavalry into squadrons by default (in my custom scenarios) since then only 160-180 men would be able to benefit from the road movement (because the second squadron will enter the hex not by road) which should be around the limit you have described too. I have also considered reducing the maximum stack size to 1000 men per hex.

Col. Dominik Derwinski (LoH, OCR, OE, CV, EM, MM)
Commandant de la Brigade
19eme legere Brigade de Cavalerie
5eme Division de Cavalerie
V Corps
L' Armee du Rhin


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 3:25 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 6:34 am
Posts: 3603
Location: Republic of Galveston Texas USA
If some of the players would remove from play any unit under the allowable strength percent the games would tack a different turn an be more realism in play. I pull allmost a Corps from a wagram game I was playing the AI. I would not pull sq of Cheval or sk's away for there strength would be down any way.

Col de Art 6/3 II Corps AN Marbot CS


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 5:35 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 10:18 am
Posts: 6158
Another concept I have used in games is Brigade Combat Effectiveness.

Basically on the HOUR turn you check ALL of your brigades. If they are past a certain loss point (I use rosters) then you note it and it can no longer melee. It can fire. Advance but no meleeing.

Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, 5ème Division, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]

Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 3:46 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 6:34 am
Posts: 3603
Location: Republic of Galveston Texas USA
Oui but at past 40% its not any more useful or its chance to route is greater and in realism they would just form the firing line and there fire is down so low.

Col de Art 6/3 II Corps AN Marbot CS


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 3:24 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 6:34 am
Posts: 3603
Location: Republic of Galveston Texas USA
How many games would change if the players would have to remove from engagement unites that were 30% or less in the Allied Army and 40% or less in the French. How many div would be force to leave engagement if there total strenght was below 30 or 40%! How many games would end if the allied army went below 40% how many games would stop at 30% for the French?

Col de Art 6/3 II Corps AN Marbot CS


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 8 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
POWERED_BY
Localized by Maël Soucaze © 2010 phpBB.fr