Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)

Does anyone know which is historically the more accurate map of the terrain and deployment of the troops at the outset of the historical battle of Ligny. The HPS version or the old Talonsoft one?
They seem to differ a bit. My instincts are saying Talonsoft mainly based on the deployment of the French army.

Welcome your comments.

Colonel Colin Knox,
Baron de l'Empire
2e Regiment Gardes d'Honneur
La Jeune Garde
CO. 1er Brigade, III Division Cavalerie Legere, III Corps Armee du Nord
http://www.aspire.co.nz/colinknoxnwc.htm

Forget the deployment, the terrain is also very different. Where one cannot cross the river in the Battleground game, in the HPS game the river is no real impediment to movement. Good for the French, and real BAD for the Prussians! [:D]

regards



General de Division Mark Oakford
IIIeme Div de Cavalerie Legere, III Corps
L'Armee du Nord

I worked from topo maps of the area and much reading to create the maps for the HPS Waterloo game, so I would say they are more accurate. In the time it has been out only one minor tweak has been made to that area, a reduction of the La Thyle from creek to stream down near Thyle & Les Quatre-Bras area.

Maréchal Hamilton,
Duc de Barbancon
21st Division
VII Corps, ADR

1er Regiment Garde
Fusiler-Grenadiers

Rich - I think that Colin also was asking about the deployment locations of the troops. What info can pass along for the folks that would shed light on the differences in the setups?

Lieutenant Colonel Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]

I don't remember exactly what my input was on the scenario, so can't comment on that...an abundance of info has passed through my brain in the interviening 2.5 years, so wouldn't even know where to start. [:D]

Maréchal Hamilton,
Duc de Barbancon
21st Division
VII Corps, ADR

1er Regiment Garde
Fusiler-Grenadiers

Oh, and FWIW, the BG games were not consulted by Charlie or me during this as there were an abundance of complaints about them as well and we didn't want to build on a faulty foundation...

Maréchal Hamilton,
Duc de Barbancon
21st Division
VII Corps, ADR

1er Regiment Garde
Fusiler-Grenadiers

Hi Guys
No criticisms intended at all I was just wondering if anyone have ever compared them. Eg; The Ligny brook is a stream in your fine scenario Rich and a creek in PTW. Which makes for a different approach from the Prussians when defending their salient position.

I am mainly trying to get my head around the intentions of Napoleon's deployment and how it was met by the Prussians. I have read a lot on it but as a wargamer I always find to actually look at the terrain and deployments you get a deeper insight. One of the reasons I enjoy the club and the HPS/TS games so much.

Regards






Colonel Colin Knox,
Baron de l'Empire
2e Regiment Gardes d'Honneur
La Jeune Garde
CO. 1er Brigade, III Division Cavalerie Legere, III Corps Armee du Nord
http://www.aspire.co.nz/colinknoxnwc.htm

It certainly does effect the Prussian Armee and how it operates that is for sure. [:(][:D]

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General der Infanterie Scott Prinz "Vorwärts" Ludwig von Allenstein-Dennewitz
(Old Windy) (Windbagfrankfurter) (The Mad Prussian) (Herr Windbagenführer)
Generalquartiermeister der Preußischen Armee
Kommandeur Garde-Grenadier-Korps
Königlich Preußische Armee am Niederrhein
Webmaster & Club Cabinet - Public Relations Officer

Vorwärts Meine Kinder, Vorwärts!!

[url="http://www.prussianarmy.com/"]Königliche Preußische Armee[/url]

[url="http://www.networkforgood.org"]Network for Good[/url]

[url="http://napoleonicwargaming.com"]Napoleonic Wargaming - INWC[/url]</center>

But in return, not loosing 25 men at a time is well and good too! [:D]

<center>--------------------------------------------------------



General der Infanterie Scott Prinz "Vorwärts" Ludwig von Allenstein-Dennewitz
(Old Windy) (Windbagfrankfurter) (The Mad Prussian) (Herr Windbagenführer)
Generalquartiermeister der Preußischen Armee
Kommandeur Garde-Grenadier-Korps
Königlich Preußische Armee am Niederrhein
Webmaster & Club Cabinet - Public Relations Officer

Vorwärts Meine Kinder, Vorwärts!!

[url="http://www.prussianarmy.com/"]Königliche Preußische Armee[/url]

[url="http://www.networkforgood.org"]Network for Good[/url]

[url="http://napoleonicwargaming.com"]Napoleonic Wargaming - INWC[/url]</center>

In terms of Colin's question about deployments, I forget Napleon's exact comment but he basically said that Blucher's deployment invited disaster. In PTW, the salient can be a strong point and in HPS, it is certainly an untenable position.

Feldmarschall Jim 'Prinz' Pfluecke
Commander, Austrian Cavalry Reserve
3 Graf O'Reilly Chevauxleger Rgt
Hahn Grenadier Bn

It also doesn't help that the layout in terms of units, commanders and brigades in each area does not follow the Order of Battle. Not a problem in real life, but a disaster in the games for commanders that are in command or not, because Prussian leader ratings are so so in command, but horrible out of the command radius, an easy advantage for the French.

<center>--------------------------------------------------------



General der Infanterie Scott Prinz "Vorwärts" Ludwig von Allenstein-Dennewitz
(Old Windy) (Windbagfrankfurter) (The Mad Prussian) (Herr Windbagenführer)
Generalquartiermeister der Preußischen Armee
Kommandeur Garde-Grenadier-Korps
Königlich Preußische Armee am Niederrhein
Webmaster & Club Cabinet - Public Relations Officer

Vorwärts Meine Kinder, Vorwärts!!

[url="http://www.prussianarmy.com/"]Königliche Preußische Armee[/url]

[url="http://www.networkforgood.org"]Network for Good[/url]

[url="http://napoleonicwargaming.com"]Napoleonic Wargaming - INWC[/url]</center>

Hi Jim and Scott
Thanks for your comments. Interesting Jim I think the PTW favors the French more. I hear a lot of people asking why?

Well it’s just that I think Napoleon intended that the Prussians should remain fixed within the salient so that his artillery could create a frightful crossfire.

With the creek the Prussian commander is inclined to defend the position and thus remain fixed within the crossfire. In HPS the position is so bad that a good allied officer quickly withdraws from the salient.

It was the former that happened in the real battle so I am inclined to think the realism of the creek may be better. All theory I know I just find Napoleons plan for this battle is a fascinating one.

I think he had lost none of his touch in 1815 from what I can deduce it was one of his greatest campaigns - now that will cause some debate [:D] I am talking at the operational and grand tactical level. It's clear some of the brigade and divn level leadership was no where the level it was in early campaigns and with Napoleon lacking some of his old tactical vigor this was a real problem for them. Especially against Wellington whose tactical excellence is well known.

Also his late recall of Grouchy at Waterloo was poor however a good officer such as Soult would not have been so poor in this decisive role. 1815 is truly a fascinating campaign.


Colonel Colin Knox,
Baron de l'Empire
2e Regiment Gardes d'Honneur
La Jeune Garde
CO. 1er Brigade, III Division Cavalerie Legere, III Corps Armee du Nord
http://www.aspire.co.nz/colinknoxnwc.htm

No, I think that PTW is easier for the prussians. You can delay at the creek enough to get the Prussian army into a decent position. You can even sit behind the ridge in the salient and play rock-papers-scissors for a while if you are so inclined

Feldmarschall Jim 'Prinz' Pfluecke
Commander, Austrian Cavalry Reserve
3 Graf O'Reilly Chevauxleger Rgt
Hahn Grenadier Bn

Hi Jim
I trust your well and Chicago is being good to you.

Yes that is my point really you feel more comfortable with the bad position as a result of the creek. This is what I think Napoleon was seeking to exploit in Blucher knowing he was not inclined to withdraw.

But I do agree a good allied player could use it in a more elastic manner for time and not get hung up on defending the ground. Thats what I would do too [:D][:D].

Salute!




Colonel Colin Knox,
Baron de l'Empire
2e Regiment Gardes d'Honneur
La Jeune Garde
CO. 1er Brigade, III Division Cavalerie Legere, III Corps Armee du Nord
http://www.aspire.co.nz/colinknoxnwc.htm

Monsieur, if I can point out something to ju, lets look at 1815 vs 2007 we live in the cyber age. We are using helicopter sight on a battle field were as the Emperor had only scouts moving about the country side and old maps. The speed of march carried the French to battle which was faster then the Allies. Wellington did not believe the information he got till Col Grant made it so. These things are not in the game! Troops were held up because of no orders or the orders were not clear. These are not in the game! Its hard to reproduce history and I believe that the designers are doing the best to make the games playable not historical correct my chapeau is off to any one who tries. I find that Scott Bowden’s old Empire rules work better then these to show the different in command and leadership and troop quality this is only my thoughts merci for your consideration.

Col de Art 6/3 II Corps AN Marbot CS