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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:36 am 
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Location: Canada
As part of the NWC Records Site ( The official name ) I am working on the transfers procedures between armies.

The part I am wondering about is what happens to an officers games in play at the time of transfer ?

Example:

Officer X is in the French army and has a game going with a Russian officer. X decides to transfer to the Russian army ( god knows why [:D] ). What happens to the game that X had going with the Russian officer in terms of scoring ?

If the transfer had not taken place, the game would be scored as a fight. With the transfer, the game could be scored as a maneuver.

I have heard 2 positions on this...

1 - After the transfer, the game will be scored as a fight.

2 - After the transfer, Players changing sides (transfer) score
only half points for games in progress; their opponents full
points as they can do nothing about it.

I need a single method to program....

any thoughts ?




<center>Image
[img]</center>
<center>Monsieur le Marechal Baron John Corbin
Commanding L'Armee du Rhin
Duc de Paive
Commanding the Division de Cavalerie de la Jeune Garde
NWC President</center>


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 10:49 am 
Speaking from experience ...

The game will score as a maneuver for the player who switches armies, and as a battle for the opponent. Simple enough. [:)]

<center>
D.S. "Green Horse" Walter, Maréchal d'Empire
Duc des Pyramides, Comte de Normandie
Commandant la [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/3_VI_AdR_Home.htm"]3e Division Bavaroise[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/EdM_start.htm"]L'Ecole de Mars[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant les Grenadiers à Pied de la Vieille Garde, "les Grognards"
Image</center>


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:01 pm 
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To awkward to code really...

I am of a mind that transfers should not take place until the transferring officer has no games in play.

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[img]</center>
<center>Monsieur le Marechal Baron John Corbin
Commanding L'Armee du Rhin
Duc de Paive
Commanding the Division de Cavalerie de la Jeune Garde
NWC President</center>


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:02 pm 
"I am of a mind that transfers should not take place until the transferring officer has no games in play." - John

John, I like that idea. Players would have to plan to make the jump from one army to another, and would be less likely to do so on a whim.

Colonel Al Amos
1erè Brigade Commandant
2ème Division de Dragons


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:13 pm 
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I'll have to have that put into the club rules...

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<center>Monsieur le Marechal Baron John Corbin
Commanding L'Armee du Rhin
Duc de Paive
Commanding the Division de Cavalerie de la Jeune Garde
NWC President</center>


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:09 pm 
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The simplest thing would be to END the game at the current level or the level agreed to by the participants, PRIOR to and a CONDITION OF accepting the transfer.

This would be for any game the transferring player is in.

<b><font color="gold">Ernie Sands
General,1e Brig,1eme Div,VI Corps,AdR
President, Colonial Campaign Club
</b></font id="gold">


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:13 am 
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Well as I see it the game was started and registered as a fight. It should be scored as a fight. The fact you change sides after the game has begun should not be a consideration. If you haven't fegistered the game then it should be registered as a maneuver as I consider the game only to be on when it is registered.

Generaal
2de Brigade
2de Nederlandsche Div
I Corps
Anglo Allied Army


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:49 am 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by John Corbin</i>
I am of a mind that transfers should not take place until the transferring officer has no games in play.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Quite impossible I think, with games that last 400-500 turns. One could easily be in a situation where one has a game that could go another 200 turns and, planning a transfer, one would not be able to start new ones for say two years? Unrealistic. One would encourage the early dropping of games with such a rule, or conversely make transfers next to impossible for responsible persons who do not want to drop games.

The ability to code something, or not, should not rule out a reasonable handling of a rare situation. It should be possible for a real person (system administrator) to take care of the proper registration then, by manual entry.



<center>
D.S. "Green Horse" Walter, Maréchal d'Empire
Duc des Pyramides, Comte de Normandie
Commandant la [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/3_VI_AdR_Home.htm"]3e Division Bavaroise[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/EdM_start.htm"]L'Ecole de Mars[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant les Grenadiers à Pied de la Vieille Garde, "les Grognards"
Image</center>


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 3:26 am 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by D.S. Walter</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by John Corbin</i>
I am of a mind that transfers should not take place until the transferring officer has no games in play.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Quite impossible I think, with games that last 400-500 turns. One could easily be in a situation where one has a game that could go another 200 turns and, planning a transfer, one would not be able to start new ones for say two years? Unrealistic. One would encourage the early dropping of games with such a rule, or conversely make transfers next to impossible for responsible persons who do not want to drop games.

The ability to code something, or not, should not rule out a reasonable handling of a rare situation. It should be possible for a real person (system administrator) to take care of the proper registration then, by manual entry.



<center>
D.S. "Green Horse" Walter, Maréchal d'Empire
Duc des Pyramides, Comte de Normandie
Commandant la [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/3_VI_AdR_Home.htm"]3e Division Bavaroise[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/EdM_start.htm"]L'Ecole de Mars[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant les Grenadiers à Pied de la Vieille Garde, "les Grognards"
Image</center>
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Agreed...

There may be a way around it but I will have to dig a bit in my code.

<center>Image
[img]</center>
<center>Monsieur le Marechal Baron John Corbin
Commanding L'Armee du Rhin
Duc de Paive
Commanding the Division de Cavalerie de la Jeune Garde
NWC President</center>


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 4:38 am 
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Mssrs.,

Being a devout adherent of the KISS approach, I would suggest that the game be scored as per the situation when it is registered. Transfers are not all that common, so why complicate things for a minor issue.

Regards,

Paco

<i>Maréchal</i> M. Francisco Palomo
<i>Prince d'Essling, Grande Duc d'Abrantes et
Comte de Marseille
Commandant - Ecole Militaire
Commandant - Division de Cavalerie de la Vieille Garde </i>
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 5:13 am 
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I go with Paco and Andy as well. If you start up a game as a French member and move over to the Allied side then leave the scoring as per when the game started.

Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, 5ème Division, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 5:58 am 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by paco</i>
<br />Mssrs.,

Being a devout adherent of the KISS approach, I would suggest that the game be scored as per the situation when it is registered. Transfers are not all that common, so why complicate things for a minor issue.

Regards,

Paco
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

The object of an automated system is AUTOMATIC scoring, posting, etc. If the TRANSFERRING player is involved in a very long match, as stated below, then the game could last for a year or more.

The code of the auto system might not support handling the game as a BATTLE, but as a maneuver.

IF the coding can support leaving the game as is, then that is fine. There is no problem and no need for further discussion. However, if the record keeper has to REMEMBER that a particular game has to be manually handled, then that could be a problem.

<font size="4"><font color="red">The simplest solution, for all concerned, is to score the games as the participants agreee to, prior to the transfer.</font id="red"> </font id="size4">


<b><font color="gold">Ernie Sands
General,1e Brig,1eme Div,VI Corps,AdR
President, Colonial Campaign Club
</b></font id="gold">


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 6:49 am 
I think this is an issue that has two sides, and ease of programming and maintaining an automated system is only one of them. If we were a mere ladder with thousands of members, it would be the only one. But since we are, as they say, a roleplaying club, "soft" matters like army cohesion and loyalty should have at least an equal say in finding a solution.

If battles between members of opposing armies can continue to be battles--in extreme cases for years and years--once they become members of the same army, and VPs can be earned by leading the enemy against the own troops under a fellow officer of the same side (even if only in a couple of cases every year), the value of army affiliations becomes somewhat dubious. We could end up questioning the very value of the battle/maneuver distinction--abolishing that one would certainly make maintaining the auto system even simpler!

Moreover, if we make it possible to earn full points for a battle between members of the same army after a transfer, there is a disparity between full points for battles that continue after a transfer and only half points for battles completed before the transfer--since points are halved in transferring.

Now on the other hand, counting battles as maneuvers for *both* sides after a transfer would be a grave injustice to the opposing player who would lose a chance for VP and full points just because his opponent decides to transfer into his own army.

I think the system used hitherto, i.e. after a transfer the transferring officer receives half points and no VP, while his opponent receives full points and full VP, if victorious, while being a tad more complicated on the face of it, has the advantage of complete fairness to both sides. If the system cannot be designed so that it can allow for such cases, it should be possible to enter or correct these games manually. -- And Ernie is right, if it has to be done manually, then it is not the system administrator who should be obliged to remember (though shouldn't it be possible to add a flag to an entry that shows up upon completion of the game?), but rather the players themselves. Likely best that their game should count as maneuver, them being on the same side, but the (non-transferring) opponent should be able to claim VP and full points afterwards.

<center>
D.S. "Green Horse" Walter, Maréchal d'Empire
Duc des Pyramides, Comte de Normandie
Commandant la [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/3_VI_AdR_Home.htm"]3e Division Bavaroise[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant les Grenadiers à Pied de la Vieille Garde, "les Grognards"
Commandant L'Ecole de Mars, L'Armée du Rhin, 2005-2007
Image</center>


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:31 am 
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Well put!!!

I agree with Dierk's evaluation and comments.

<b><font color="gold">Ernie Sands
General,1e Brig,1eme Div,VI Corps,AdR
President, Colonial Campaign Club
</b></font id="gold">


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 5:46 pm 
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Here is a question: what if I have an Allied fellow want to play a game with me, its 500 turns in length, we are at turn 100 and he decides to move over (and rightfully so!!!) to the French army?

Now I have spent 100 turns fighting someone in the club whom I consider my side's enemy. Now I am fighting a guy that is on my side.

I dont like to play a Maneuver that is that long. Even for the full amount of points. Now I am fighting for no glory for my side.

Frankly the rule should be: finish your games OR go with get full credit for them. Changing them to a Maneuver for one side makes John's job that much harder. I am for trying to help admin be as easy as possible in the club.

If you want to switch sides just figure on doing it after your get done with your games ...

Finding out that I am going to finish a Fight with a new fellow member of V Corps ... [xx(]

It just takes the fun out of fighting the other side.

I can see all sides in this one and I hope that whatever the decision is made results in giving Admin a break. [;)]

Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, 5ème Division, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]

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