Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)

"Cliff if you are wondering why you are not getting responses to your multi nation concept I think it may be to complicated and not articulated well enough for people to easily absorb. Players don't like to commit to big multi player games unless they are sure all participants will play regularly.

Nothing personal my friend I admire the idea."

Salute!





General de Brigade Knox
Baron de l'Empire
2e Regiment Gardes d'Honneur (the regaled pheasants)
La Jeune Garde
CO. 1er Brigade, III Division Cavalerie Legere, III Corps Armee du Nord

Monsieur #1 what you said would be true if we have called for members to commit to a Multi-National battle were that members National pride would be at stake.
#2. The game is not mind nor the idea it was brought up in a game that I was in I’ am just running with it.
#3. The members who play would only have to give the umpires Gran tactical moves once every ten turns how much time would that tack in a 132 game turn?
#4. I was just looking at the number of games on the Opp finder its still shows a large number of Bg games I also play BG games but I like the ease of the HP games.
# 5 I play three or more games a week I was thinking more about what would be best for all club members not myself.
#6 any one who plays will be given an honor if they quite they will still get something if they leave with a notice the game would be wide open.
#7 its win or lose by the combine orders.
#8 the rules of the game are for the umpires to go on an move the ME Tactical.
But still mesi for your input.


General de Brig Kliff Marbot
II Corps Art Res Division .Commander
Marechal de Camp AN

I play both although I prefer BG over HPS even if it requires a number of house rules to keep it in the context of Napoleonic warfare.

I just have a felling in HPS games that the side with more battalions/squadrons always has the upper hand...

General Dejan Zupancic
Duc d'Eylau et Comte de St. Pol

Division de Cavalerie Saxonne
VII Corps d'Armee
L' Armée du Rhin

Brigade de Fusilier-Chasseurs
Division d'Infanterie
la Moyenne Garde

Sire I see on one side the ease of playing plus the benefit of numbers then on the other the more historical play and the involvement to send numbers of file and the use of rules to govern play. I also see that the same can be done with the Hp if both sides agree to the terms of play; one thing is for sure you have to learn the rules to play historical. Your input in the Multi- national game could be very helpful.

General de Brig Kliff Marbot
II Corps Art Res Division .Commander
Marechal de Camp AN

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Dejan Zupancic</i>
<br />I play both although I prefer BG over HPS even if it requires a number of house rules to keep it in the context of Napoleonic warfare.

I just have a felling in HPS games that the side with more battalions/squadrons always has the upper hand...

General Dejan Zupancic
Duc d'Eylau et Comte de St. Pol

Division de Cavalerie Saxonne
VII Corps d'Armee
L' Armée du Rhin

Brigade de Fusilier-Chasseurs
Division d'Infanterie
la Moyenne Garde
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Yes, unless I am on the side with more troops! [:D]

Colonel Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

With the ZOC kills [xx(] in BG I think its easier to fight at a disadvantage with HPS where the battles can be slower assuming you play the right rules combination. NME etc.

Helga a round here please!





General de Brigade Knox
Baron de l'Empire
2e Regiment Gardes d'Honneur (the regaled pheasants)
La Jeune Garde
CO. 1er Brigade, III Division Cavalerie Legere, III Corps Armee du Nord
http://www.aspire.co.nz/colinknoxnwc.htm

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Colin Knox</i>
<br />With the ZOC kills [xx(] in BG I think its easier to fight at a disadvantage with HPS where the battles can be slower assuming you play the right rules combination. NME etc.

Helga a round here please!





General de Brigade Knox
Baron de l'Empire
2e Regiment Gardes d'Honneur (the regaled pheasants)
La Jeune Garde
CO. 1er Brigade, III Division Cavalerie Legere, III Corps Armee du Nord
http://www.aspire.co.nz/colinknoxnwc.htm



<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I agree. The ZOC kills allowed the weaker side to spring ambushes and then run for it. Without it, the ambush turns into a battle of attrition which the stronger side wins. Not saying that isn't historical (which I know is the a lot of people's problem with ZOC kills) but it does increase the sense of inevatibility in some battles (eg French win at Wagram).


Lt Colonel Neville Worland
Chef d'Etat-Major
Ier Corps de Réserve de Cavalerie
Army du Nord

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Neville Worland</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Colin Knox</i>
<br />With the ZOC kills [xx(] in BG I think its easier to fight at a disadvantage with HPS where the battles can be slower assuming you play the right rules combination. NME etc.

Helga a round here please!





General de Brigade Knox
Baron de l'Empire
2e Regiment Gardes d'Honneur (the regaled pheasants)
La Jeune Garde
CO. 1er Brigade, III Division Cavalerie Legere, III Corps Armee du Nord
http://www.aspire.co.nz/colinknoxnwc.htm



<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I agree. The ZOC kills allowed the weaker side to spring ambushes and then run for it. Without it, the ambush turns into a battle of attrition which the stronger side wins. Not saying that isn't historical (which I know is the a lot of people's problem with ZOC kills) but it does increase the sense of inevatibility in some battles (eg French win at Wagram).


Lt Colonel Neville Worland
Chef d'Etat-Major
Ier Corps de Réserve de Cavalerie
Army du Nord
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Actually, the French can be given a good battle at Wagram if NME is used in combination with embedded melee. Of course you can't use the Arch Duke Charles stratgey or you will probably lose every time. I am currently playing two historical Wagrams.[8D]

Major General Ed Blackburn
Commanding Second Div, II Corps, AAA
3rd Bn / 1st Regiment of Foot Guards

I actually meant HPS was easier for the inferior defender. Due to the same reasons as Ed says, Embedded melee and NME.

I personally found when I played BG say for example PTW unleashed that if you know how to ZOC its a massacre for the French as they will cut the allieds to bits in no time.





General de Brigade Knox
Baron de l'Empire
2e Regiment Gardes d'Honneur (the regaled pheasants)
La Jeune Garde
CO. 1er Brigade, III Division Cavalerie Legere, III Corps Armee du Nord
http://www.aspire.co.nz/colinknoxnwc.htm

I am still not sold on NME. I think it leads to more unrealistic situations than the ZOC kills do. I tend to look at ZOC kills not so much as the elimination of the men as the rendereing of the unit unfunctionable. This was a common occurance in these battles; a unit simply can no longer function in the fight. With NME I am seeing many instances of stacks of units meleeing with no flank support. I am in a waterloo game right now where there are a couple of 3 battalion stacks basically behind my lines. I have them contained and I am slowly shooting them to pieces but their actions are just not sinceable. I have also found that with NME there seems to be more melees rather than more fire combat. There is just no real penalty for a foolhardy melee.

Marechal Jonathan Thayer
Commandante Moyenne Garde
Duc de Saalfeld et Prince de Friedland
1/10/III
Armee du Nord




jonathanthayer@bellsouth.net

I agree Jon, I think the solution is to lower morale ratings, change the rout rules a little so that units cannot rally if surrounded and ensure we play with isolation rules on. Then the rout and overun solves this problem. That said I personally prefer this problem to a big game of ZOC kills. But its personal preference really.

As a table top player I guess thats a difference to the old board game players.

General de Brigade Knox
Baron de l'Empire
2e Regiment Gardes d'Honneur (the regaled pheasants)
La Jeune Garde
CO. 1er Brigade, III Division Cavalerie Legere, III Corps Armee du Nord
http://www.aspire.co.nz/colinknoxnwc.htm

I agree with Jon. NME makes the game very unrealistic. After all a ZOC kill may account for a sudden break of morale and surrender of a unit or stack. Situation on the allied left at Dresden comes to mind. Such a massive surrender was a rather rare case though.

A solution may be in adding one more check - based on initial odds the defending isolated force may surrender. The worse for defender the odds were there more probable such an outcome is. I believe it's plausible. What we have now is also a good idea. But intensity of surrenders for a defeated in melee isolated stack should be at least one order of magnitude higher.

<center></center>
<center><b>Eyo Imperatorskogo Velichestva Leib-Kirassirskogo polku
General-Adjutant Anton Valeryevich Kosyanenko
Commander of the Second Army of the West </b></center>

Sire that sounds like me, I'm now in a game with a Russian Prince were the rules are
1. © Conquered and occupied Objective Points in towns and villages must have some garrisons (a troop/company of infantry or troop/squadron of cavalry, or a wagon-train);. Infantry may not shot across their skirmishers who are in front of the infantry;
2. (d). If any disordered/routed/isolated troops without a leader find themselves AFTER A MELEE behind the enemy's front line, they must to capitulate and draw themselves into a location indicated by an opponent; opponent most have a force to watch them.
3. (e) Once a ME (except Guards) has lost 50% of their strength, it can no longer engage in offensive actions Div or Corps as while.

4. (f). A ME can move no faster then the slowest unit in that ME within three hex of slowest
5. (b). Artillery can’t fire over any unit on the same level as it is.
6. (a) No unit can set in the same hex as Art unit Artillery can’t unlimber in towns and villages or buildings.
Amended rule;
1) one Btn or Sqn (in Close Columns) can cover a battery of 6-8 light guns in front of them in one hex (100X100m): a small Btn (300-400men) and a line of 6-8 light guns ahead of them even in the village or town conditions;
R&H (Realism&Historicity) claims
these rules I had to learn and keep with me most game are open and any thing goes which makes for a poor battle.
Now in their Multi -player game the umpires controls the Tactical moves and govern the out come of battle thats why I'am in it to learn.

General de Brig Kliff Marbot
II Corps Art Res Division .Commander
Marechal de Camp AN

Cliff
I agree with some of these rules and not with others.

For example rule 2d is not realistic in my view. Units often broke through lines and got isolated particularly cavalry. To suggest they would automatically surrender is not in my view historical. The 14th at Eylau is a good example.

Re 6a Artillery did unlimber in towns the whiff of grapeshot being the most famous example. Also to say a battery can sit unprotected is also not historical. A hex is a big space and having a square nearby is realistic. By way of an example consider the British artillery at Waterloo when the massed cavalry charges occurred the gunners would fire up to the last minute and then run a lie down in front of the squares they would then rush back as soon as they could and continue firing. Also it was common to position a gun in the corner of large infantry squares.

As regards firing on the same level if this was the case how did skirmishers operate in front of an army? At Waterloo the whole French and Allied line had a continuous skirmish screen in front of it for the whole battle. I admit the slope was a factor but the thing to remember is this rule is debatable.

So for me these rules are not historical and therein lies the problem it’s my opinion. No person is 100% right on this and at the end of the day its personal preference.

My preference is to avoid too many house rules as they reduce the games enjoyment for me.

I like to rely on HPS’s opinion of history and I feel I play in a historical style in the context of the HPS engine. I do like some house rules such as MOE though but to me adding a whole lot more is a subjective debate and for me tiresome.

Just my opinion gents.

Salute!


General de Brigade Knox
Baron de l'Empire
2e Regiment Gardes d'Honneur (the regaled pheasants)
La Jeune Garde
CO. 1er Brigade, III Division Cavalerie Legere, III Corps Armee du Nord
http://www.aspire.co.nz/colinknoxnwc.htm

Sire just like every thing in this world no two people can agree on any one thing it’s a give and tack. I will give so that I can learn how to play this person and not make a fuss so the next game we can agree on some issues. I had two French Generals just up an up quite on me because I wasn’t playing to their liking. One game I had I had to quit because I was so over match and I did learn a lot. I my case I’m willing to learn the ways of many who play unlike the table top were we had a book of rules to rely on (Empire Rules). I wish to see many come and play a Multi-game weather its MOE rules or theirs it doesn’t matter to me so long as it done an the people enjoy it to do more of the same. Now as far as the Hp game goes I think that nothing can touch them for what they can do if only there were more of them like the add on in BG NIR project.

General de Brig Kliff Marbot
II Corps Art Res Division .Commander
Marechal de Camp AN

Actually, that house rule 3(e) (50% loss) reminds me of the BCE (brigade combat effectiveness) rule from Berg's ACW games and the morale levels in the La Bataille games where when you lost a certain amount you couldn't melee as well as morale penalties - something I'd like to see in these series. Now that I think about it, a similar system is used in The Gamers ACW and Nap board games as well.

But going back to the original post, I agree with the point that there aren't so many HPS posts because once you get into a campaign, that's you for a year...or two...or ??? Whereas even large BG games can be completed within a few months.

Lt. Col. Sean Turner
1er Dragons
2ème Division de Dragons
Ier Corps de Réserve de Cavalerie
l'Armee du Nord