Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)

Currently the mod for the Embankment is giving the defender that has that kind of terrain in his hex a bonus. Thus if you are firing from a higher level through an Embankment that is showing steep slopes the unit below you get a -10% on fire.

Is this accurate?

Should we use zero % instead?

The only case where I see a mod for the defender beneficial is where you have two embankments back to back to show a dike or a field that was banked (hedgerow, rice paddy, etc).

Another question: was musket fire less accurate when firing downhill? Could the ball roll out or was it packed sufficiently?

That is about the only reason I see for a unit that is below the firing unit to get a bonus. In this case the steepness of the slope causes the firing unit to not be as accurate. Otherwise I see no reason for the benefit to aid the unit that is below the firing unit.

Again, the Embankment hexside is inside of the Defender's hex: not the other way around.

My call is to use zero percent for those scenarios that use a map that does not have the Dike/Field banking. In all cases where a dike occurs or similar feature I would use the -10%. Where there is a mix I will credit the Dike/Bank model and just figure that folks will not be spending much time fighting in the hills. The embankment should mainly be a movement penalty anyway. And in some cases it it used to prohibit artillery or Supply Wagon from crossing a hexside. Embankments are also used next to higher contours above streams (not with the stream of course) to show steep banks. Unless used back to back I see no reason for a defender bonus.

Good example of the mixed model is the Durentstein map. It has steep sided contours with embankments in the high portion back of the river. Near the river, though, are embankments placed back to back to simulate the banking that protected the fields in case the Danube flooded. You can also see this in areas of Europe where definition of property boundaries are used. Helped keep the livestock out of the neighbor's grazing areas.

Comments?

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Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, VP4LC, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.07)

Bill I will leave the embankment issue to your expertise. My comment would be about firing downhill.
I am of the view any unit on the higher ground will always have an advantage as picking targets out is much easier from above. If you look at military history in all the periods the high ground was and still is considered a key advantage.

In the N wars the advantage was also phycological. A soldier firing his musket from above felt more confident and therefore would take either more time aiming and firing if he was a skirmisher or if in formation hold his discipline for a powerful and well timed unit volley.

The corresponding effect for the attacker was the morale challenge of pushing up a slope against a confident enemy. As well as the physical disadvantages of aiming uphill.

So in summary I think 20% advantage per elevation although it is defensive is a good way of reflecting the difficulty of knocking a unit off an established piece of high ground.

Salute!

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Marechal Knox

Prince d'Austerlitz et Comte d'Argentan
Ordre national de la Légion d'honneur

"What is history but a fable agreed upon"

I plan on changing the elevation benefit to 10 percent per Waterloo/NRC so as to more standardize the series. I also have some changes I made to the PDT files for Austerlitz. The Fort value was too low and the contour amount also was changed for the next update.

Leaving the Embankment at -10% for now. I doubt that Rich H. will want to tinker with it for the series.

I use the Embankment as a means of showing that the contours are close together and impassable to artillery/wagons. Frankly I would rather NOT use them as they are pain in the neck to add in. I went to using the 3D view in the map editor as otherwise it's really hard on the eyes.

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Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, VP4LC, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.07)

Strictly addressing ballistics and marksmanship, a shot fired uphill will land lower on a target than a shot aimed at the same point on flat ground (or fall short) and a shot fired downhill will hit higher (or shoot over). When firing downhill it is necessary to aim a bit low and vice versa. If we assume the target is a unit of men, then an uphill shot falling short does no damage, whereas a downhill shot going over the man in the first rank, may strike a man in the second or third thus increasing the chance of hitting something (or decreasing the chance of missing, if you prefer). Combined with Colin's comment then, there should be a bonus for units firing down and a penalty for units fring up.

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Maréchal d'Empire Theron Lambert
Grand-duc de Montereau et Duc d'Angers

Yes, that is what I thought as well. I do know this from golf: a shot fired downhill actually can go FURTHER. The drop off extends the range. Has nothing to do with the accuracy factor and no, we cannot change the engine to allow for that but face it: put a cannon on a hill and its range is greater.

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Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, VP4LC, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.07)

Gentlemen,

There, y' go! Just 'cos you're higher, you think your bullet goes further. It doesn't. It just has longer to fall...

On the other side, however, your bullet, cannot rise as high and still has less to fall...

The rest is all a fantasy.

Regards

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Général Mark Oakford
Duc de Smolensk, Comte d'Autun
Commandant
Réserve de Cavalerie, La Grande Armée

Well said Mark - I couldn't say it better myself. Look on any hunting site and you will see the cautions that aiming both downhill and uphill requires special care and a non-intuitive adjustment of your sight.

Individuals trained in aimed fire (read skirmishers) and artillery should get an advantage of perhaps 10-20% for better and more rapid sighting, if nothing else.

Volley fire was leveled not aimed, and should be penalized both uphill and downhill. I recall reading once that the British always leveled at the opponents knees, to compensate for so frequently firing downhill, but this was referred to by the source as very unusual. I regret that I cannot recall where I saw this.

Hey gents but a hunter is not under fire when he is firing. I don't think ballistics are the issue. it's the effect on morale. Which in turn effects the calmness and therefore effectiveness of aimed and volley fire.

Salute!

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Marechal Knox

Prince d'Austerlitz et Comte d'Argentan
Ordre national de la Légion d'honneur

"What is history but a fable agreed upon"

True - but as the process becomes more complex, the importance of remaining calm throughout increases does it not?

Hmm, I think what you left off is that the ball does not fall straight down as it reaches its apex but falls at an angle. The same thing happens with a golf ball Mark. It is why you must account for extra distance off of hills when you have a lake in front of you and hit off of a rise. I do remember well the hole at Elkins Ranch enough to know that. You cannot use the driver. You must use a 3 or 5 wood.

Thus the ball would continue to fly on at a diagonal and not a true vertical angle.

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Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, VP4LC, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.07)

I suggest a member of the club somewhere who may have seen combat should comment on this. The high ground has since the beginning of warfare been crucial. A combat veteran who understands what it is like to be under fire is the source we need.

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Marechal Knox

Prince d'Austerlitz et Comte d'Argentan
Ordre national de la Légion d'honneur

"What is history but a fable agreed upon"

Ah, but Colin, you've already heard from one, although I must confess that there weren't many of the Iraqi forces that chose to fire at us and those few who did did not do it for very long.

First, as I commented regarding ballistics and shooting up or down hill an explanation.... If one fires on a flat plane relatively parallel to the ground then gravity acts on the projectile by pulling on it with a force perpendicular to it's course not affecting it's velocity but causing it to eventually fall to earth. Any loss of velocity is therefore a result of friction with the air or whatever else it encounters in its path. Now let's imagine that we are shooting uphill on a 45 degree slope -- in this case the pull of gravity is no longer perpendicular to the direction of travel, but rather it is actually pulling back on the projectile at a 45 degree angle thus half of the acceleration of gravity (32 ft/sec/sec) is serving to retard forward motion of the bullet while pulling it closer to the ground at the same rate as on flat ground. A projectile thus affected will travel less distance than one fired on a flat that does not have to fight gravity to continue moving forward. On the other hand a projectile fired down hill is accelerated slightly by gravity and will travel farther. Hence the difference in aiming points -- aim high shooting up hill, aim low shooting down.

Now regarding Colin's comments on the high ground. What is it that leads boys to play "King of the Hill" and where did that title come from anyway? Why does holding the summit of that pile of dirt make one king?? This speaks a bit to the mental/morale aspect of a commanding position. At a time when high explosive artillery rounds were not terribly effective, it could be quite advantageous to have the extended field of fire and line of site provided by high ground, and it doesn't hurt to make the other guy fight against gravity a bit as he tries to come to grips with you either.

And, as I said before, shooting down into a mass of troops where you are likely to shoot high yields a much greater probability of a hit (by hitting someone behind your target) than shooting at a front rank where if you miss you are likely to hit the ground at the target's feet. Yes, I know volley fire wasn't aimed fire in the sense of picking a particular individual as a target necessarily, but you're still trying to point/aim at the enemy formation and if your ball travels faster & farther or slower & shorter it will change the point of impact relative to one's site picture regardless of whether the target is a group or individual.

With modern artillery, the hill top is not necessarily the place to be today -- in the wrong circumstances it just makes you one hell of a good target; think, "Defense of Duffer's Drift." Sometimes it still is, though.

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Maréchal d'Empire Theron Lambert
Grand-duc de Montereau et Duc d'Angers

Although he served in North America, I believe Ernie is the only club member who actually served in the military during the Napoleonic era.

Gentlemen,

Theron Lambert has the right of it. However, so also does Colin Knox. The ballistics provide that being upslope does give a recognisable advantage over someone attacking up that slope. Therefore there are positive range and morale effects from being upslope.

There is also a visual effect - you can see further and (maybe) above the smoke, so can act on your observations of the actions of enemy troops other than those directly in front of you. Then again, if there's an awful lot of them, so maybe the morale effect could reduce depending on the sight laid out before the defending troops...

I actually once won a wargaming, table top battle simply by marching my troops on and deploying, while my opponent watched from the high ground. This was a battle as part of a campaign, and he lost heart, so to preserve his force, he retreated.

My point is that possession of the high ground also allows initiative. To stay and fight and take advantage of the tactical initiative that implies or retreat, depending on how he sees the battle or tactical situation developing.

Theron, air observation (and "artillery") obviously is the highest hill and at that point, ground based forces are at a disadvantage when without the means to deplete the air observation. Fortunately, that doesn't apply for Napoleonic warfare!

regards

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Général Mark Oakford
Duc de Smolensk, Comte d'Autun
Commandant
Réserve de Cavalerie, La Grande Armée

LOL!!! Yes, where are you Gunny? What was it like at Khe Sanh when you guys were firing downhill from Hill 881 South?

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Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, VP4LC, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.07)