Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)

I am maybe mistaken but for me the sword/saber define the purpose and cavalry type.

If the saber is strait it's heavy cavalry. For example: Carabinier, Cuirassier, British Heavy Dragoon, French Dragon
If the saber is curved it's light cavalry. For example: Hussards, Husaren, Hussars, Chasseurs a cheval, British light Dragoon, Prussian Dragoner.
Is there any other thing to take in account?

If yes could someone enlighten me?


[title edited]

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Général David Guegan

3ème Régiment de Grenadiers - Bataillon d'élite du 3ème Légère
2ème Brigade
Grenadiers de la Réserve
Réserve
La Grande Armée
--------------------------
"From the sublime to the ridiculous is but a step."
Napoléon Bonaparte

Military justice is to justice what military music is to music.
Groucho Marx

It's just a general term. The key things are if the cavalry is classified as heavy or is armed with 'Lance' it gets a melee bonus

Salute

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Marechal Knox

Prince d'Austerlitz et Comte d'Argentan
Ordre national de la Légion d'honneur

"What is history but a fable agreed upon"

Historically the heavy cavalry carried a straight sword. It was a thrusting weapon. The light cavalry carried the curved saber. And of course the exotic cavalry types like the Mamelukes carried their own form of cutting weapon.

Were you asking a historical question or one that had to do with the game itself?

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Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, VP4LC, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.07)

It's historical and it has to do with the game of course.

In Jena, I see for example the Prussian Dragoner as heavy cavalry and if I am not mistaken they didn't have a straight sword but the French Dragon are Light cavalry but carried a straight blade.

I have read on this forum that the quality of the horses lead to having them counted as light cavalry in the game.

I have also read that the quality of the French cavalry wasn't in its horses but in its organization and ability to reform after a charge and get ready to attack again.

[edited for spelling mistake]

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Général David Guegan

3ème Régiment de Grenadiers - Bataillon d'élite du 3ème Légère
2ème Brigade
Grenadiers de la Réserve
Réserve
La Grande Armée
--------------------------
"From the sublime to the ridiculous is but a step."
Napoléon Bonaparte

Military justice is to justice what military music is to music.
Groucho Marx

Yes, the debate on whether a unit is heavy cavalry or not could go on. The OBs are open for editing by anyone that wishes to change the types of the cavalry. Just make a copy of the OB and add in your own version of things if you like. For me I will stick to my version as nothing in the accounts says different. French cavalry of this period were not what they would be by 1809. Better mounts made them a better foe on the battlefield. This is one reason for instance why the Swedish cavalry were not regarded as good as the other European countries. They rode on smaller horses and generally were not as good as say the Austrian cavalry.

The one thing that gives the Allies a chance in the large scenarios is that they have an edge (pun intended) over the French where it regards cavalry quality.

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Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, VP4LC, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.07)

David,

I suggest that you read a profound book on the history of cavalry. For example Col. Dennison's work, or Capt. Nolan's, or Col. Maude's. If you are able to read in Russian Col. Markov's is the best choice. If you are able to read XVIII century French of course you should read Varneri. All of them are practitioners, but Varnery was acting general under Frederich der Grosse. And what others were only talking about he tried and executed himself.

For me these books very much made questions like this irrelevant. But they rose a good many other questions of how cavalry operated and how better to portray this in the game.

A brief remark. If memory helps it was Zieten who said something like "If the charge is delivered with proper energy and if the other side receives it standing fast, it does not matter what are the sides armed with, even with mere whips the attacker will overthrow the defender". The whole history of warfare in general and cavalry in particular teaches us that lengths and curvature of the sword as well as the height of the horses, color of coat and miriad other things didn't play the crucial role. The tactics did.

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Don't worry Bill, that is what I am doing: my own oob (with its own name and own scenario).

Carl von Clausewitz (himself) wasn't very kind about the state of the Prussian army prior to the campaign, in Nachrichten über Preußen in seiner größten Katastrophe[1] he talks about the rigidity of the training. If you add that since the 1st coalition they haven't fought...
Comparing that to the French Army (and cavalry)... I can't see the rational behind the better quality of the horses as the only reason to give the Prussians an advantage.



[1]I have Notes sur la Prusse dans sa grande catastrophe 1806 the French translation of Carl von Clausewitz I haven't found an english translation yet.

_________________
Général David Guegan

3ème Régiment de Grenadiers - Bataillon d'élite du 3ème Légère
2ème Brigade
Grenadiers de la Réserve
Réserve
La Grande Armée
--------------------------
"From the sublime to the ridiculous is but a step."
Napoléon Bonaparte

Military justice is to justice what military music is to music.
Groucho Marx

I agree with you that the size of the horse isn't enough to give a rating to a cavalry.

The Archduke Charles said "The French cavalry was, on the whole, poorly mounted and poorly equipped; its men were awkward horsemen. Yet it outclassed its opponents simply because, when order rang out and trumpets clarioned 'Charge !' it put in its spurs and charged all out, charged home!"

An interesting link:
http://napoleonistyka.atspace.com/French_Cavalry.html#_quality

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Général David Guegan

3ème Régiment de Grenadiers - Bataillon d'élite du 3ème Légère
2ème Brigade
Grenadiers de la Réserve
Réserve
La Grande Armée
--------------------------
"From the sublime to the ridiculous is but a step."
Napoléon Bonaparte

Military justice is to justice what military music is to music.
Groucho Marx

Sure and the next thing you know you will have me keep the morales for the French the same and in fact increase them. Like I said - enjoy. You are biased because you are French. Similar to the Russian guys here.

I am after play balance and history. If the French cavalry were good it was in the pursuit phase and not on the battlefield. Remember that most of the Reserve Cavalry was kept in reserve until after the Battle of Jena. After that we do not have much to go on other than what happened in 1807.

Put you and the French together and the Prussians would have morale 3 while the French have 8 and the Russians 7 with the golden morale rating too.

End of subject for me.

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Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, VP4LC, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.07)

G.T. Denison, The History of Cavalry. I own a second edition (1912) copy.

Wow... Bill you are judging me very quickly... I am trying to understand the rating and you think that I only want to give the French a better rating because I am French. That's jumping to conclusion a little fast don't you think?
The Prussian cavalry didn't perform historically to the level you put them. At Auerstadt they weren't able to route Davout divisions while they were enjoying superiority (at least in number) to their counterpart.

As you can see I try to feed my argument (or my case) with facts nothing else.



When I look at your scenario 05h_2_Jena-Auerstedt (for example) I see that Bernadotte and the reserve korps of Kalkreuth are free to move while they didn't participate to the battle...
- Bernadotte because he didn't move much
- Kalkreuth because he is ordered by the king to retreat after the defeat of the 3 other divisions.

I understand that you let them participate.

But then I am wondering why Ruchel (from the accounts I have read he had 15 000 to 18 000 men depending who counts) has only 8000 troops.

To end there... I don't particularly want (at the moment) give a higher quality to the French Dragons, I just want to put them back as Heavy cavalry and put the Prussians dragoner as light cavalry... And I am not asking you to do that to the official scenarios, I will do it only to the scenario I am creating.

Here is an interesting article by Peter Hofschröer:
http://greatestbattles.iblogger.org/GB/ ... chroer.htm

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Général David Guegan

3ème Régiment de Grenadiers - Bataillon d'élite du 3ème Légère
2ème Brigade
Grenadiers de la Réserve
Réserve
La Grande Armée
--------------------------
"From the sublime to the ridiculous is but a step."
Napoléon Bonaparte

Military justice is to justice what military music is to music.
Groucho Marx

+1

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General-Leytenant Alexey Tartyshev
Leib-Guard Preobrazhensky Regiment (Grenadier Drum)
1st Brigade
Guard Infantry Division
5th Guard Corps


(I don't play with with ZOC kills and Rout limiting ON)

We all know why the Prussian cavalry failed at Auerstadt: pure and simple they were poorly lead on that occaision. Charging infantry in square has that effect on a regiment.

Second, the size of a horse is PART of the equation. Just ask anyone who has ever ridden a horse about this. Stronger, more durable horses can last longer in action. Add to it the weight of the horse has an effect on the action as well. Quick lighter horse more maneuverable and able to act better in skirmishing.

The idea of "charging home" works much better for men mounted on larger horses than for cavalry mounted on ponies.

Hmm, go ahead and produce your version and then try finding opponents. As it stands the Prussians are outnumbered anyway. When I put out my last Jena update folks were furious about the French morale upgrade. Folks refused to install it and to this day are playing with the older version. Or they just use the older OB file.

So who would play with your version? Two French players on the same side playing against the AI for bragging rights in a "cooperative game?"

I am not jumping to conclusions here. The game has been out since 2006 and I do not see you saying anything like "the Saxons handled themselves better than the Prussians therefore I am going to increase their ability in combat as a result." And that IS true and frankly it makes you wonder about the Saxons of 1809 too. Was it the men or the leader (Bernadotte) that failed them or just the fact that they were involved heavily in a fight (Wagram village) after having marched all day to cross the river and then deploy across the hot dusty Marchfeld and finally end up fighting into the evening and then on the next day caving in when probably most of the French formations (other than the Guard or III Corps) would have done the same? THIS begs evaluation - not the French dragoons.

If anything the morale of the Saxons probably should be different than the Prussians. I already rate their cavalry well. Their infantry handled themselves very well indeed. Ok, where are the Germans to support this one too.

Or maybe you have some Allied positives to add in here?

Face it: Napoleon won the lesser of the battles, Jena, and had a ready reserve of cavalry available. They were able to capture towns by boldness and overrun a retreating army. Frankly I do not see justification in that to support any increase in the ability of the French dragoons. I do see the French light cavalry doing wonders on the pursuit. Nothing I can do about this and we do not have a "bluff" option for taking towns!

But lets here some positives for the Allies and I will believe your claim. So far I see it as the same as what I hear from the Russians. Never anything good about the French and in Austerlitz they were discussing making the Grenadier battalions have D morale! Fine, lets give the Russian grenadiers E morale then as the French grenadiers showed far much more elan than them. And did more exploits than the Russians. About the only good thing you can say about the Russians of 1805 is "they came, they devastated Austria and Moravia, they retreated."

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Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, VP4LC, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.07)

Give it a break Bill... I am not trying to give the French the best rating because I am French... Nor do I need to boost my ego and national pride. it's the most ridiculous argument I have seen so far.
It is just that I started the conversation with the Prussian because I am not used to that army and I was curious. When I saw that you updated the begin_campaign1806.oob I wanted to put those changes in the campaign1806.oob too (therefore lowering the French without any problem doing so). But then I wondered (as an amateur) what where your sources... So I asked for the designers notes, because I know that is where the information is usually. And because Nafziger oob collection is now free to access... I decided to compare...
Also, if I am interested about it only now, it's because I have been busy with other games (blame Campaign Waterloo for that) which I have played extensively on both side with great pleasure.

I am trying to have an adult conversation and an argumentative discussion about the Prussians (and the others too) and your only answer is to try to discriminate me. So, please refrain from participating if you can't have a hold of your temper.

Now back to the cavalry...
Peter A. Hofschröer says:

From that I take that according to your rating system only 2 regiments would count as Heavy dragoner and then I read that they all carried a long straight bladed sword. Other accounts says that they still had saber at that time. So now I am undecided between having all the dragons (French and Prussian) has heavy cavalry (as per my standard= straight sword vs curved saber) and your option being light horses = not heavy with only 2 Prussian dragoner (#4 & #5) as heavy and everybody else (French and Prussian) dragons has light cavalry...

Then I continue reading Hofschröer and I see:

which is similar to what I have read from Clausewitz who gives 810 men[2] (without counting the officers). In your oob you give 1000 men per regiment. And the same goes for the Cuirassiers.

Now lets talk about the French... just to show some balance
When I look at Nafziger oob [3]and then look at yours I see differences... (and it is not the only division or corps with that difference).

After looking at others oobs I discover that the missing part of the 3 battalions have been left behind[4].

Also I looked at the infantry of the Garde and you give them an average of 785 men per battalion when Nafziger gives less than 500men per battalion...
Any balance/historical explanation for that?

So of course you are free to do whatever you want with your oob, but don't tell me that your is balanced/historical or maybe if you go that way you should be more specific how you used your sources than that:

(taken from the designer notes)
Because... now I am sorry to say that your words aren't enough.

[1] http://greatestbattles.iblogger.org/GB/ ... chroer.htm
[2] page 71 of the French edition of Notes sur la Prusse dans sa grande Catastrophe 1806 Editions Champs libres 1976, Carl von Clausewitz.
[3] http://carl.army.mil/nafziger/806JBI.pdf
[4] http://carl.army.mil/nafziger/806JAE.pdf

_________________
Général David Guegan

3ème Régiment de Grenadiers - Bataillon d'élite du 3ème Légère
2ème Brigade
Grenadiers de la Réserve
Réserve
La Grande Armée
--------------------------
"From the sublime to the ridiculous is but a step."
Napoléon Bonaparte

Military justice is to justice what military music is to music.
Groucho Marx

An interesting thread.

I am dismayed to see the accusations of bias being bandied about again. This must stop.

This board is for friendly discussion about the Napoleonic Wars not unflatering, insulting or rude comments.

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