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 Post subject: Re: Napoleon at Borodino
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:46 pm 
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Its great to see this interesting conversation in the tavern. I will have to think of another subject to post for debate soon.
Have a good weekend all!

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"What is history but a fable agreed upon"


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 Post subject: Re: Napoleon at Borodino
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:34 am 
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Going to agree with Mark twice here.

1. I also believe the better plan was to let Davout loose aroung the Russian left. Colin, I think Napoloeon had no problem letting geographical barriers seperate his lines of attack. In fact he would often seek to pin the enemy with the first corps to engage while enveloping or sending to the rear follow on corps. Wasn't that the beauty of the corps system perfected by Napoloen. Why should Borodino have been different. I really chalk it up (Napoleon's plan selection) to Napoleon himself not being on his game for the reasons we discussed earleir.

2. Mark, your point about Berthiers importance is completey accurate. There was certainly a critical difference in the ability of the Napoleon's coprs commanders to perfrom when he was present compared to after his death. The greatest example were the manuvering fiascos during the Waterloo campaign.

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 Post subject: Re: Napoleon at Borodino
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:35 am 
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Colin Knox wrote:
Its great to see this interesting conversation in the tavern. I will have to think of another subject to post for debate soon.
Have a good weekend all!



Same to you Colin. :D

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85th (Buck's Light Volunteers) Regiment of Foot
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 Post subject: Re: Napoleon at Borodino
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:41 am 
And just to be absolutely clear on the matter, Berthier threw himself from an upper story window, crashing to his death on the cobblestones below, because he was so distraught at the idea of the renewed slaughter of men that would ensue upon Napoleon's second ascension. :shock: :shock: :shock:

The fact that a Hanoverian horse was tied up in the courtyard had nothing whatsoever to do with this totally independent and tragic decision by Bonaparte's brilliant Chief of Staff. Nothing whatsoever. A mere coincidence. You should summarily dismiss this thought from your mind. :roll: :wink: :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Napoleon at Borodino
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:48 am 
Was that a Hanovarian Supply Horse? :P :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Napoleon at Borodino
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:55 am 
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MCJones1810 wrote:
And just to be absolutely clear on the matter, Berthier threw himself from an upper story window, crashing to his death on the cobblestones below, because he was so distraught at the idea of the renewed slaughter of men that would ensure upon Napoleon's second ascension. :shock: :shock: :shock:

The fact that a Hanoverian horse was tied up in the courtyard had nothing whatsoever to do with this totally independent and tragic decision by Bonaparte's brilliant Chief of Staff. Nothing whatsoever. A mere coincidence. You should summarily dismiss this thought from your mind. :roll: :wink: :mrgreen:


I guess we should assume that applies to half finished bottle of Jagermeister as well? :o :o

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 Post subject: Re: Napoleon at Borodino
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:01 am 
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MCJones1810 wrote:
And just to be absolutely clear on the matter, Berthier threw himself from an upper story window, crashing to his death on the cobblestones below, because he was so distraught at the idea of the renewed slaughter of men that would ensure upon Napoleon's second ascension. :shock: :shock: :shock:


There is a good article about his death in French (translated by google)

http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... erthier%2F

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Napoléon Bonaparte

Military justice is to justice what military music is to music.
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 Post subject: Re: Napoleon at Borodino
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:03 am 
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Quote:
The fact that a Hanoverian horse was tied up in the courtyard had nothing whatsoever to do with this totally independent and tragic decision by Bonaparte's brilliant Chief of Staff. Nothing whatsoever. A mere coincidence. You should summarily dismiss this thought from your mind. :roll: :wink: :mrgreen:


Well, I did not think so, but then again I never thought Happy Hanoverians would push someone out of a window. So in the future when there are Hanoverians around I am staying on the ground and away from two story buildings just in case a someone drops a French General on my head!

Battle On


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 Post subject: Re: Napoleon at Borodino
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:35 am 
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I am going to have to disagree with Mark and Ed here for a minute. I think that you are both discounting the political aspect of this.

1. As I noted, in some ways I agree with El Presidente, in that if you are going to fight, you should fight to win. But in a state, France, that was a military dictatorship, the Guard was more than an elite reserve on a battlefield, it is the representation of the power of the ruler. Not something to be committed lightly.

So yes, Napoleon should have gone forward to look at the front as the battle reached its climax and, according to the marshalls on the scene, the time was right to send in the reserves. It appears that Napoleon had a set of odds in his heads---roll the dice on a battle, a battle that he had been seeking for weeks--- but, in the end, it was a limited risk he was willing to accept. Likely damage to his guard, or its possible defeat or at least heavy loss, was not, in the end, odds he would attempt to roll.

More prudent would have been to retreat to Smolensk rather than risk a battle that he, in the end, was not wholly committed to winning, although we will never know if, from the start he did not want to commit his guard or if this was more a reaction to the stubborn performance of the Russian infantry and the carnage wrought by their guns.

A final question here is this: Did Napoleon have enough cavalry in reserve to exploit a successful attack by the guard? I am not sure if he did, and certainly, without cavalry to pursue, the Guard breaking the Russian line was no guarantee of a stratgically decisive victory.

2. The distance from home and supply. When the aide supposedly said something to Napoleon about the Guard being the last body of formed troops between Borodino and (I forget where) France, he was on to something. Was this something that had been discussed previously?

This bears also on the idea of a flank march. Dividing your forces in the face of the enemy is always tricky, but it is even trickier when you are weeks away from your nearest base- the price of failure is high. How many times did Napoleon divide his force in the face of the enemy when Napoleon was not sure to have a large superiority in numbers? How many times were his flanking attacks the result of strategic and operational manouvers, as opposed to tactical ones, such as this one would be?

3. There are times when throwing everything in is the best military decision, but not the best political objective. The Austrians showed this in 1814- their strategic, geo-political goals went beyond defeating Napoleon and led to the diversion of troops out of the theater, a de-emphasis on destrying Napoleon's armies, and the need to preserve their own army to negotiate from strength and therefore utilized the German forces under their command as much as possible in 1814 to do the fighting.

For Napoleon, his military decisions made at Borodino had reprocussions throughout his Empire. Preserving the Guard echoed beyond Borodino and, while perhaps costing him a decisive defeat (in doubt due to lack of cavalry), may have played into his calculus of decision making.

A few months back I read the book "A Savage War of Peace," on the Algerian Revolution. There is a qoute in there by DeGaulle explaining to one of his confidants about how the generals did not understand that the needs of France were greater than the needs of the army in Algeria and that there was a balance between needs (defeating the revolution) and ends (the methods used), that played out in the global balance of power. At this time, France was tying to reclaim its position as a great power by attempting to position itself as a global arbitrer between the USA/NATO and the USSR. "Third World" opinion mattered and so, therefore, did the methods used in Algeria. Losing Algeria was more acceptable than alienating world opinion. The qoute is something like "France is more than Algeria," which the generals did not understand or agree with.... but I digress.

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 Post subject: Re: Napoleon at Borodino
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:08 pm 
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A calm late summer evening as the rider pulls up to the stable by the tavern.

He dismounts his black stallion, a gift from the emperor of France for his many years of service. A stable boy runs out to take the horse.

"Please see he is fed and brushed and bed him down for the night. I may be a while."

He tosses some coins at the smiling boy and heds for the tavern door.

Upon entering, he notices the usual crowd is about in various stages of enibriation.

General Mark Jones is pontificating to the younger allied officers about his various exploit, real or imagined.

The russians seem to be huddled in a dimly light corner very deep in their cups.

The French officers, of course, see all seated around tables near the fire.

He strolls over to Bardon's table and asks if he may join.

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GrandeDuc de Piave et Comte de Beauvais
Camp de Vétéran
La Grande Armée


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 Post subject: Re: Napoleon at Borodino
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:29 pm 
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Seeing the return of the hard bitten Marechal of France, whose fame followed him like the Great Marechal's of the like Ney and Davout, General Knox signalled to Helga and soon the table was full with fresh libations. Before long the pontificating of General Jones was drowned out by the raucous laughter from around the fire as Marechal's Corbin and Bardon recounted one of their famous tales.

Marechal Corbin it is good to see you back in this fine establishement! Senior French officers are often to busy in the field of battle to partake here so good to see you rejoin us.

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Prince d'Austerlitz et Comte d'Argentan
Ordre national de la Légion d'honneur

"What is history but a fable agreed upon"


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 Post subject: Re: Napoleon at Borodino
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 1:57 am 
It would seem that only Marechal Bardon is absent to complete the Triumvirate of France. My oh my, if all of you are here in one place, who pray tell is defending Nappy's borders? :roll: :roll: :roll:

Good to see you again John! :P :P :P


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 Post subject: Re: Napoleon at Borodino
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:46 am 
"...the Triumvirate of France..."

Three blind mice,
Three blind mice.
See how they run,
See how they run...


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 Post subject: Re: Napoleon at Borodino
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:14 am 
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Al Amos wrote:
"...the Triumvirate of France..."

Three blind mice,
Three blind mice.
See how they run,
See how they run...



Oh ouch! :shock: :shock:

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85th (Buck's Light Volunteers) Regiment of Foot
16th British Brigade
7th Division
III (Peninsular) Corps
2nd Battalion, Coldstream Regiment of Foot Guards


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 Post subject: Re: Napoleon at Borodino
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:14 pm 
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Marechal Corbin, very glad you could join us. As I have said before, a chair will always be open for you at my table.

And Major Amos, tres amusant. I see your time in the depths of the cold Siberian summer has not competely frozen your wits.

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Duc de Castiglione et Prince de Wagram
Commandant de la Garde Imperiale


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