Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)

I hope I can generate some discussion, especially with those players who play not so much to win so to recreate historically accurate battle behavior. Perhaps my biggest gripe about these games has always been the "fight to the death" path these games seem follow. I have recently returned to playing board games (actually I just set them up and look at them for a few months until I move on to the next one, but). There is one rule set for those games that I think would work in the computer games and that is along the lines of fatigue. In most of the newer board games units have different levels of faigue like our games do but there are greater restrictions on activities. As it pertains to the Tiller games, I think it would be a postitive addition to have penalties like:

1) When a unit hits medium fatigue it would be restricted from moving toward the enemy but enemy unit but it could stay on the line if defending.
2) Once a unit reached max or red/orange (can't remeber) it would have to withdraw from combat and could not return to free activity until fatigue was recovered to green

What does this accomplish? I think a couple of good results could come from it. First, player would have to watch their fatigue on offense to avoid hitting the max fatigue. Attacks could actually be repulsed since the attacker would not want to completely drain their units. Reserves would become incredibly important. And finally, I think it would strengthen the role of skirmishers and lead to more fire combat as it would become more important to "soften up" targets before melee is iniated. And finally, especially in the monster 300+ turn games, there would be a way for a defender to actually withdraw from an unfavorable battle.

I recently played the huge Eckmuhl game as the Austrians and I cornered Davout's III Corp and the Bavarian Corp. We had a huge battle that ended the game before Napoleon made it to the map. By the end of the battle I had almost nothing that wasn't heavily fatigued but as the French were in the same situation I just kept pressing and eventually my opponent had no alternative but to surrender. With this faituge idea I would have had to stop advancing and Davout could have escaped and the game would have continued and there would have certainly been more battles. I am open if any one wants to try this out and I would love to hear back some opinions. Thanks,

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Marechal Jonathan Thayer
Prince de Friedland et Duc de Saalfeld
2ère Brigade
1ère Division de Grosse Cavalerie
Réserve de Cavalerie
La Grande Armée

I like this idea, in general. I would like to see fire from skirmishers cause higher fatigue.
I don't like that cavalry squadrons/platoons (depending on the game) rarely accrue enough fatigue to make a difference. I would like to see them accrue fatigue faster when detached, like in the PZC games...Squadrons and platoons tend to fight until they are eliminated...

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Could be an idea.
And indeed I think that different types of units should cause different levels of fatigue when doing fire combat.
Skirmishers should make maybe double, in the Revolutionary Wars era bands of French skirmishers made Austrian units shaken so that regular French bat. could throw them.
And Artillery should even triple the standard value, at least on a distance greater then the musket range, because usually this means infantry/cavalry is taken fire without being able to do anything, usually the hardest situation for a soldier, just to sit and wait and seeing the cannonballs come at him just to make awful noises when hitting left or right of him. That surely fatigues him more like doing fire combat himself.

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I wouldn't like to see skirmishers made more powerfull than they already are. I'm against them incurring extra fatigue.

Movement rates currently are based on how far units can move in 10/15 minutes, with no consideration of how far they can move in an hour or longer.

My suggestion would be any time a unit uses more than 1/2 its MP it accrues fatigue. It's then up to any commander how hard they want to march their men.

Troops that move at maximum speed for any length of time are going to need to rest.

In larger multi day battles, troops can move more realistic average daily distances or "force march" further at the generals discretion.

For the example that started the thread, troops that are running away simply keep running at maximum fatigue. The general pursuing is going to have to decide if pushing his troops to high or maximum fatigue, resulting in the already existing penalties, is worth it.

The average amount of fatigue accrued would need to be set equivalent to the current average recovery rate.


Better quality troops would accrue fatigue due to movement slower than poor quality. ie if you move "C" quality troops at full pace you would need to rest for an equal amount of time to recover all that fatigue. Since they accrued less fatigue, "A" quality troops would be able to rest less and therefore move further than "E" quality troops.

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Général de Brigade Dean Webster
1ère Brigade
1ère Division
4ème Corps d'Armée
La Grande Armée

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"I have a plan so cunning, you could put a tail on it and call it a weasel"
Blackadder

Would you need to make game turns much longer? Played a battle recently where reinforcements were 5 turns away from getting near the front. If they moved at half pace, they should just enter the map and open up a truck stop and serve tasty meals to the locals.

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Major General Richard Bradshaw, 1st Viscount of Manchester

Lloyd's Battery, Royal Artillery
Royal Regiment of Artillery
Reserve Artillery & Engineers

I'm not 100% confident that I understand how fatigue is recovered, so I'm not 100% sure how much fatigue should be accrued each turn with my suggestion.

5 turns is not much. If the units accrued say 30 points per turn, that would give them a fatigue level of 150 points. That's not enough to make a huge difference straight away, but enough that it might be a consideration on future actions.

So the impact on fresh troops moving for an hour or two is not that great. Moving troops that have already been heavily involved in battle is a much bigger concern.

I play a lot of the longer battles. I've got troops marching from dawn to dusk without spotting an enemy.

In clear weather on a major road (sorry the term Pike means nothing to me), infantry with 16mp costing 2mp per hex is 800m per turn. 12 hours of daylight, 6 turns per hour, 72 turns, they can march 58km or 36miles. Even on minor roads in light rain it's 4 hexes per turn = 29km or 18miles.

Maybe it also only needs to apply to units using roads movement.

I think the original post was more concerned with longer battles than 30-40 turn battles. I'd make it an optional rule recommended for longer battles.

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Général de Brigade Dean Webster
1ère Brigade
1ère Division
4ème Corps d'Armée
La Grande Armée

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"I have a plan so cunning, you could put a tail on it and call it a weasel"
Blackadder

Just saw where in the new 4.04 update that cavalry is assessed fatigue points for every hex they move into for a charge. Have not checked to see if this includes the follow up movement hexes too. The charge was not at a full charge the entire time. Really its more like the last hex where they closed ... the momentum picked up as they moved to contact. Probably just adding in a set amount of fatigue points to assess the unit at the end of the turn would sound better.

But its a step in the right direction in that many here in the NWC have noted in the past that cavalry rarely hit HIGH or Medium fatigue levels. They die or the game ends before that.

In the Panzer Campaigns series the fatigue plays more of a role. There are only 300 fatigue points (0-299). It doesn't take long to go over 100 fatigue points into the Medium Fatigue level. Units really need to rest when they hit 150 points or else they risk getting into the High Fatigue level. The unit is pretty much "toast" at that point.

While resting in the Nap series doesn't recover a lot of points during Day turns, it takes on a new meaning during Night turns.

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Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, VP4LC, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.07)

I think the thread has spun into a discussion on desired ways that fatigue is accumulated and my intent was to address combat restrictions once fatigue is acrued.

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Marechal Jonathan Thayer
Prince de Friedland et Duc de Saalfeld
2ère Brigade
1ère Division de Grosse Cavalerie
Réserve de Cavalerie
La Grande Armée

Thanks for raising this Jon, the fact that some battles can see huge casualties is my only real complaint with the games we play. I know that we can't expect to play 100% accurate historical representations of the battles that we fight. But I agree that turning a Leipzig into World War 1 slog doesn't feel right.

That said I think that the current fatigue rules do good job of discouraging throwing blown units into the fray, but to be truly useful a house rule feels appropriate.

As ever in these things testing is all. We are at the start of an Eckhmul game Jon with plenty of time to go. How about we introduce a house rue as you suggest and report back on the results?

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Field Marshal Sir Michael Davies, 1st Duke of Glamorgan K.T.
23rd Regiment of Light Dragoons
3rd British Cavalry Brigade
Cavalry Corps

Dum vivimus vivamus

That sounds really good. I have some ideas that I will express with my next turn back.

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Marechal Jonathan Thayer
Prince de Friedland et Duc de Saalfeld
2ère Brigade
1ère Division de Grosse Cavalerie
Réserve de Cavalerie
La Grande Armée

Campaign 1814 Patch 4.00 Changelog
*Added Night Movement Fatigue optional rule, with a value of 50 fatigue points.
*Added possibility for Artillery units to become disordered due to ranged fire after they reach
Medium fatigue.

Campaign 1814 Patch 4.03 Changelog
*Adjusted Cavalry Charges – now each hex a cavalry unit moves while in “Charging” mode will
add 15 fatigue points to its total.
*Adjusted Fatigue calculation when combining skirmish units with their parent battalion. Now
fatigue is applied proportionally across the entire unit. See User manual for example.
*Adjusted melee modifiers so Defenders now suffer a -10% (High Fatigue) and -20% (Max
Fatigue) penalty.

These are the Fatigue issues addressed., and I think they speak directly, mostly, to the issues you raised.

I think they help prolong a battle and encourage players to keep reserves, form double battle lines to rotate fresh units to the front and rest front line units. Other rules modifications that, I feel, give more of an 19th Horse and Musket play are:

*Adjusted Infantry defense. Infantry not in square which is charged by cavalry into its flank or
rear will defend at 50% strength.
*Adjusted Column Pass Through rule to apply to units in Square formation as well.
*Added 3 hex “leash” for skirmishers from non-light/guard/routed units.
*Added new Optional Rule - Column Movement Restriction. This adjusts the disorder check so
that Infantry in Column formation will Disorder in Forest, Town & Marsh terrain when this
rule is selected.
*No Detached Melee optional rule introduced.
*Movement Threat Disorder optional rule introduced.
*Melee across a hexside or into a hex that would cause Disorder results in the same Melee
penalty as if the unit was Disordered.
*Routed units won't be able to spot enemy units. They are now treated like supply units or
uncrewed artillery.
*Reduced maximum LOS in some of the titles to 2km (20 hexes). Allows players to sneak around and surprise their opponent and encourage scouting. (I would like to see this for all scenarios in all games, but that is a very big job.)

Are these suggestions frustrating because you can't just launch an attack and expect it to go in, yes, but that's historical. Do armies slow down and need to be rested to "un"disorder, and is it necessary to keep Brigade elements always close to their leaders to help disorder, yes. Will players not like it, probably. Many of our frustrations center around "it slows the game down" or "I'm not in total control of my army", all historical.

Battles were fought where many assaults were needed to be made to take an objective, but that frustrates players, sorry. Here is an example from the AWI: the battle of Bunker Hill.

The Regulars launched three different assaults to take the position. After each failed attempt, THEY RETIRED TO THIER JUMP OFF POINT, to rally, rest and reorder and then tried again. In our games, when an attack fails, we stay right in the face of the enemy and launch reserves, instead of falling back and regrouping, thereby allowing our reserves to stay in reserve and our front-line formations to battle longer. In fact, a failed attack usually finds players staying where they exert an ZOC over the defender so they cannot rally, then the defender swarms the attacker and the attacker fusses and fumes.

Remember, players add the Napoleonic feel, WWII Blitz feel, or Modern 24/7 feel by the way they engage in movement, deployment and combat. If you always push like General Patton, you won't feel like you're Archduke Charles.

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Général de Brigade Amos
1ère Brigade
Cavalerie, 3ème Division de Dragons,
Réserve de Cavalerie, La Grande Armée

“Ask Before Activating Al”

Nice posting Général de Brigade Amos!

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Speaking of combat restrictions, how is it that a 1X cavalry unit can stop a 700 man battalion? There should be a way to push horse back.

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Major General Richard Bradshaw, 1st Viscount of Manchester

Lloyd's Battery, Royal Artillery
Royal Regiment of Artillery
Reserve Artillery & Engineers

Dash and Elan?

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Field Marshal Sir Michael Davies, 1st Duke of Glamorgan K.T.
23rd Regiment of Light Dragoons
3rd British Cavalry Brigade
Cavalry Corps

Dum vivimus vivamus

Move next to 'em and then shoot 'em. That works!

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Général Mark Oakford
Duc de Smolensk, Comte d'Autun
Commandant
Réserve de Cavalerie, La Grande Armée