Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)

Gentlemen,
let me pluck up some courage and take liberty to assert: the HPS Cavalry COLUMN Battle Order is a big misconception, and its "father-founders" have to let our cavalry units to have capability of both formations: COLUMN and LINE, likewise our infantry units.
I'm a hard-liner of the maximally possible realism and historicity in our gaming, and for this purpose I've started to form new House Rules for myself and my game-partners. The H&R (Historicity & Realizm) House Rules are based on the Napoleonic era's Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery Regulations, so, when I collected info for an article "Maximal Hex Capacity", I found out that all the most respectable scholars of the epoch (G.Rotenberg, B.Northworthy, G.Nafziger, P.Haythornthwaite, S.Bowden, A.Pigeard, J.Lachoque, A.Viskovatov etc.) state the same: at the time of Napoleonic wars, Cavalry marched and manoeuvred in various type of column (by fours, platoons, divisions, squadrons; closed or opened ones) but then they formed line for waiting or charging; and the famous French cavalry massive charges in columns by closed squadrons at Eylau and Liebertwolkwitz were nothing but the extraordinary actions, acts of despondency.
So, our cavalry units have a jus to get the line battle order.[:)]
BTW, with considering of all intervals between platoons and squadrons in Line, a game hex 100X100m can get in only 1-2 Sqns up to 200 horses total.
I need a "technical" advice of a programmer: can I set up the function "Change Line/Column" for Cavalry myself, and what I have to do for that? Or we have to beg about the HPS "father-faunders"?[;)]

GM Vladimir N. Repnin
2nd Grenadier Division
8th Corps
The Russian Army

This has pretty much been hashed out before. We are not going to see a different formation for cavalry. Also no Road Columns either.

The players are welcome to change the PDT file stacking value if they like. Lower the 2000 entry or make it more if you like. Change the number of "counters" allowed and so on.

But thanks for the info. Do a search on Al Amos and find some of his gems that he wrote up on stacking. Lots of good info there. The max amount of people that could possibly be in on hex is staggering but surely not a military reality.

Oberst-Lt Wilhelm Peters
2nd Kuirassiers, Austrian Army

Vladimir,
Why don't you switch from playing the BG/HPS games over to <i>Age of Rifles</i>? This old (1996) game has both march & attack columns and cavalry can change formation too. There are more formations than in the BG/HPS system, cavalry can be set to counter-charge the enemy in the defensive turn and units automatically fire up to 3 times defensively. When guns are attacked they can sometimes limber up and escape, while captured guns can be recrewed or spiked. Artillery can set villages or woods on fire and, depending on wind direction and strength, the fire can spread to other hexes.

Lt Rich White
4th Cavalry Brigade
Cavalry Corps
Anglo-Allied Army

Bill,
Just for curiosity, if BG/HPS Nappy cavalry <i></i>could<i></i> change formation what would it be like? Would the cavalry end up <b>dismounted</b> in line like ACW / EAW cavalry, or would they remain mounted but still enter a line formation?

I suspect it would probably be the dismounted ACW style line formation, which - if quite straightforward to incorporate (I imagine it's probably already present in the code but disabled) - would be useful for dragoons, who might then be armed with firearms. Other cavalry either wouldn't be able to enter this formation or, if they could, would be unable to fire and thus have no real use for this formation.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Richard</i>
...would be useful for dragoons, who might then be armed with firearms. Other cavalry either wouldn't be able to enter this formation or, if they could, would be unable to fire and thus have no real use for this formation.
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Dear Richard, I guess You, as a cavalry officer, know very well about the Cavalry Line Battle Order was designed for charging with cold steel basically. It was the primary battle order for Cavalry till WWII inclusively, cause Line has one vital advantage: a cavalry unit in Line Order having its greater width always could envelop weak and vulnerable flanks of any cavalry or infantry column.

"...We are not going to see a different formation for cavalry. Also no Road Columns either."

Oh, Bill! Why it's so flat refusal? I don't believe you're an antagonist of historicity and realism in our gaming.[;)]

Vladimir Repnin.

Vladimir

You have, in part, answered your own question. Deploy your cavalry as 1 or 2 squadrons / hex and you have effectively deployed them in line.

However, your calcualtions regarding space miss the other element of the turn based game - time.

With each turn representing 15 minutes, two regiments, deployed in line, one behind the other could have been made. This would be simulated by 4 squadrons per hex being allowed to charge, which, at up to 200 men / squadron is pretty well where we are at with a limit of 1,000 cavalry per hex.

Remember that any significant change will have a dramatic affect on game balance. If the total number alowed per hex is reduced to say 400, or even 500 cavalry, opponents need not even bother changing to square.


My thoughts

Regards

Mark

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Richard</i>
<br />Bill,
Just for curiosity, if BG/HPS Nappy cavalry <i></i>could<i></i> change formation what would it be like? Would the cavalry end up <b>dismounted</b> in line like ACW / EAW cavalry, or would they remain mounted but still enter a line formation?

I suspect it would probably be the dismounted ACW style line formation, which - if quite straightforward to incorporate (I imagine it's probably already present in the code but disabled) - would be useful for dragoons, who might then be armed with firearms. Other cavalry either wouldn't be able to enter this formation or, if they could, would be unable to fire and thus have no real use for this formation.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Good question: wish I had an answer for it. Basically I would prefer to see the unit dismount in Line. However, it brings up a whole new amount of questions and its better to just have them as a infantry unit in the OB anyway. Cavalry rarely dismounted in the period.

As to the discussion of lines and columns: cavalry fought mainly in Line. The Austrians used a column for the longest time but the French Lines kept getting around their flanks.

Thus in order to keep the game SIMPLE I am dropping the idea of dismounting cavalry and having them change formation in all of my future titles. Along with Road Columns too.

If I want to represent cavalry as dismounted I will just have them in the OB as such.

Oberst-Lt Wilhelm Peters
2nd Kuirassiers, Austrian Army

Sirs,

while the "amount of horsemen per hex" should depend on further research and discussion (how the attacking formation was created, how many lines/squads, etc.), I would fully go with Vladimir in the case of cavalry formation. Lack of such feature is, IMHO, the worst "history-breaking" error we currently have here. Why? Becouse it gives the cavalry SO much manoeuvrability and flexibility. Being always able to move with full speed AND charge forward any time the player likes, then move/charge again having luck enough to re-order, this is something that in reality never happened (in fact the cavalry was able to make only 1-3 charges in the whole BATTLE, then being too tired/disordered), what makes our cavalry super-strong and calls for frequent HouseRule solutions.
The infantry needs for its man 4 roles (move/attack/fire/anticavalry) 3 formations, artillery 2 (fire/move). And our strongest unit in the game, the cavalry, needs for all its tasks (move/scout/surround/attack/...) only one ? With all those historical problems of deploying/using/re-ordering of the cavalry???? That's something we just could not be satisfied with!
The soulution should be in having (at least) "manoeuvre" (unable to charge) column and "attack" (able to charge) line for cavalry, yes, with some questions of movement/charge rate, etc.

GM. Pavel Stafa
Kommanduyuschiy Korpusom Rezerva
2-oy Zapadnoy armii EIV

Ideally, I'd like to see several formations for cavalry:

1./ <b>March column </b>for roads and rapid movement (also for infantry, in addition to the infantry attack column)
2./ <b>Mounted Line</b> for charging
3./ <b>Skirmish</b> for individual squadrons scouting. In this formation cavalry should have some - albeit limited - fire ability. They would also have the ability to retreat from any enemy that approached them, especially infantry, but also heavy cavalry, without getting shot at or trapped. Of course if they run into some concealed infantry then the infantry can fire, but infantry should never be able to march up towards cavalry - possibly even deploying in line - before delivering a volley whilst the cavalry just sit there watching them! That's a serious problem with the turn-based gaming system.
4./ <b>Dismounted Line</b> for dragoons only. With the same sort of fire ability as EAW or ACW cavalry.
5./ <b>Open</b> - a special loose sort of formation that all troops, infantry as well as cavalry, can assume to help recover from fatigue more quickly, but which is poor for combat purposes. (Age of Rifles has such a "formation")

I know it wasn't that common for cavalry - even dragoons - to fight dismounted in this period, but there may be times when this would be a useful tactic, such as when dragoons advance rapidly to secure a bridge or village and can then dismount with the support of some horse artillery to hold onto it until the infantry can arrive. Of course, no one in their right mind would use cavalry in a dismounted role except under special circumstances - after all they're usually worth a lot more points than infantry.

Lt Rich White
4th Cavalry Brigade
Cavalry Corps
Anglo-Allied Army

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Baron</i>
<br />Sirs,

while the "amount of horsemen per hex" should depend on further research and discussion (how the attacking formation was created, how many lines/squads, etc.), I would fully go with Vladimir in the case of cavalry formation. Lack of such feature is, IMHO, the worst "history-breaking" error we currently have here. Why? Becouse it gives the cavalry SO much manoeuvrability and flexibility. Being always able to move with full speed AND charge forward any time the player likes, then move/charge again having luck enough to re-order, this is something that in reality never happened (in fact the cavalry was able to make only 1-3 charges in the whole BATTLE, then being too tired/disordered), what makes our cavalry super-strong and calls for frequent HouseRule solutions.
The infantry needs for its man 4 roles (move/attack/fire/anticavalry) 3 formations, artillery 2 (fire/move). And our strongest unit in the game, the cavalry, needs for all its tasks (move/scout/surround/attack/...) only one ? With all those historical problems of deploying/using/re-ordering of the cavalry???? That's something we just could not be satisfied with!
The soulution should be in having (at least) "manoeuvre" (unable to charge) column and "attack" (able to charge) line for cavalry, yes, with some questions of movement/charge rate, etc.

GM. Pavel Stafa
Kommanduyuschiy Korpusom Rezerva
2-oy Zapadnoy armii EIV
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Pavel - I have yet to see cavalry be able to charge 3 times effectively. Unless you only attack in one melee hex the cavalry are going to lose too many men to be effective in the next charge and even so they are very vulnerable to fire.

As to them being the strongest component of the game. Yes, melee strength is there but infantry are by far more durable and can be used many many times in melees.

I agree that with 3x they are potent and the new Cavalry optional rule for multiple melees helped eliminate some things about them that were historical incorrect but they still remain expensive to lose.

All good points though and I understand where you are coming from.

Cavalry should be in a BLOWN status for at least 45 minutes after a charge is concluded. Thus the horses would be able to trot at 1/2 speed back to their lines and from there they would rest.

Another fact about cavalry - they had to move or their limbs would tigthten up. Which is why they also must be ridden each day as well. That and internal issues that happen to a horse if not ridden daily.

This from two friends of mine that are horse lovers.

Anyone remember the Blown rules from miniature games? You charged on one turn but after that you marked the cavalry as Blown. After that they were easy pickings for other cavalry.

This is a good topic. Enjoying hearing the differing views on cavalry.

Oberst-Lt Wilhelm Peters
2nd Kuirassiers, Austrian Army

Yup, the BLOWN rule (+ line formation [:)]) could make miracles here. In current engine this could make the cavalry bit vulnerable to infantry fire, but, well, this will make us to (historically) add enough support such charge, and, probably, let us to lower cavalry "point-price" a bit.
BTW not riding the horse will not tighten his legs, natural movement on a pasture will leave the horse with enough strenght even without getting into contact with a rider (look how the Lipitsaners are being bred). But you have to have your horse a) fully under your controll and b) able to bear higher (un-natural) encumbrance for at least short amount of time. And that's why a special training with trainer/rider is needed. I remember when we were asked to help our friend with preparing his horses for a cross-country season, by only WALKING up and down very steep and soft slope with them to strenghten their leg muscles. More than an hour. Daily [:D]

GM. Pavel Stafa
Kommanduyuschiy Korpusom Rezerva
2-oy Zapadnoy armii EIV