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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:58 am 
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Well the difference of 10 men per gun is to me negligible. Given how devastating artillery can be I'm quite happy to throw significant amounts of men at it to eliminate it. Even a 12-gun Russian battery is worth the extra 120 men. Most of my battles end with each side losing anywhere between 100 and 500 guns each, historically just absurd - that's partly due to guns being vulnerable, partly due to gameplay.

I'd have thought infantry, attacking slowly en masse would receive higher losses than charging cavalry during melee of guns.

Of course, a lot depends on how many men you lose advancing on said guns, which depends on the vagaries of the engine during auto defensive fire.

I would not like to see auto artillery fire which results in every battery firing at units every hex they move forward. But auto prior to melee is fine by me, or an optional rule whereby artillery about to be meleed can limber up.

Luitenant Generaal
2de Brigade
2de Nederlandsche Div
I Corps
Anglo Allied Army


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:49 pm 
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One more point. VPs for the guns. In the BG system, if I remeber correctly, Russian guns were worth 8pts/ gun which equaled 200 infantry. So losing 500 French Infantry to kill a 12 gun position battery was a trade I would make every time (72 pts vs 20 pts). Heck the battery was worth 300 French cavalry in trade. Killing them early, and preventing the long-haul attrition, was easily worth MORE troops than they were worth in VPs. In NIR scenarios I made almost every move with the idea of killing Russian guns. You bagged big VPs and lowered your own attrition. A twofer. Same with the big Prussian batteries.

Capt Tartyshev is correct about the Ligney scenarios. But the solution, for the French, is 2-fold. 1) Insist on a 3-hex skirmisher lease, makes it impossible to hide and 2) Bring up a ton of artillery and clear the opposite bank. I almost never try to force a crossing at Ligney or St Amands prefering to swing around and hit the Prussian right past were the river turns to a stream. So I just clear the southern part of the Dyle and sit and manuever, wait for a mistake, and then take advantage of it.If all else fails fight a pitched battle North of St Amands along the E-W pike in the Prussian rear. (While fighting another on the French right). The center just sits.

John, admit it, your gunners were asleep! Tell them to lay off the captured schnopps!

General de Division Doug Fuller
Duc de Montmorail et Comte de Hainaut
2e' Grenadiers a' Pied de la Vielle Garde
I Corp Commander
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:54 pm 
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Bill,

My advice is keep the vulnerabilty of the gunners at 20. Once you get to contact the gunners should die. I can't imagine a 6-gun 6lber battery standing off 300 infantry in column. They need to be protected and if the protectors flee - so should the guns.

I would like a rule that if a formed infantry unit stacked with artillery routs that the artillery limbers up and routs also (or at least withdraws with the infantry). I have watched entire lines of Brit 'E' infantry run and leave there guns stranded behind. A thought.

General de Division Doug Fuller
Duc de Montmorail et Comte de Hainaut
2e' Grenadiers a' Pied de la Vielle Garde
I Corp Commander
AdN
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 4:53 pm 
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Hi All
Well I must say historically I just cannot agree with Bill. There are numerous examples of artillery standing its ground and canistering infantry or cavalry at short range. Mercers (was it Mercer?) account at Waterloo is a good one where the French cavarly just piled up in front of the battery , what about Eylau or Borodino or the French at Friedland. Sorry Bill I just cannot agree that the gunner would leg it when close, especially with infantry support.

This is another reason why I only play manual def fire.
PS Bill really enjoying Jena!

Regards to all
Capitaine Colin Knox,
4e Comp / 2e Artillerie a Cheval
2e Brigade
3e Division Cavalerie Legere
IIIe Corps
Armee du Nord


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 4:58 pm 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by buffpilot</i>
<br />
Capt Tartyshev is correct about the Ligney scenarios. But the solution, for the French, is 2-fold. 1) Insist on a 3-hex skirmisher lease, makes it impossible to hide and 2) Bring up a ton of artillery and clear the opposite bank. I almost never try to force a crossing at Ligney or St Amands prefering to swing around and hit the Prussian right past were the river turns to a stream. So I just clear the southern part of the Dyle and sit and manuever, wait for a mistake, and then take advantage of it.If all else fails fight a pitched battle North of St Amands along the E-W pike in the Prussian rear. (While fighting another on the French right). The center just sits.


<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

What you described is exactly what’s happening in my current game. But its not fun or at least it is not the fun it suppose to be. Artillery is too powerful (especially in killing) and this forces players to play not in a historical manner.

In actual battle Napoleon was attacking frontally for at least 6 hours at both St Amand and Ligny and suffered only 10,000 casualties (don’t have the exact figure now). If you try the same in PTW it would take 2-3 hours maximum to massacre the majority of the French army.


Captain Alexey Tartyshev
Moscow Grenadiers Regiment
2nd Grenadier Division
8th Infantry Corps
2nd Army of the West (NWC)


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:15 pm 
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Yes, the Ligny situation was basically a frontal attack not in the mould of the early Napoleonic format. A sure sign that Napoleon was losing his grip on the battlefield. Borodino was another good example.

Alot of the post-1807 battles he fought were like this. Instead of outmaneuvering the enemy and putting his forces on their flank he ends up choosing a frontal assault.

1813 was a bit different in that Napoleon was often on the defense (or his commanders) and mainly without cavalry which caused him to be restricted in making flank attacks. Bautzen is either Ney's fault for not making the right maneuver or a failure on Napoleon's part in putting the wrong guy in an important role or orders failure.

But in 1815 there was no finesse (of even 1814) and the battles were mainly frontal assaults which generated little to no gain.

I contend that sending Ney's wing over to QB was a serious mistake. Rather it would have been better to have some light cavalry screen in the direction to give intel while Ney moved on the MIDDLE of the two Allied armies. This way Blucher couldn't have joined up later with Wellington and Napoleon would have caused the Anglo-Allied army to retreat on its base (the port of Antwerp). Again, his operational plan was sound but splitting his forces in the face of the enemy divided his manpower and in the end Grouchy's wing was wasted as well.

Yes, coming from a Monday morning quarterback standpoint but again, by this time in the wars Napoleon had lost his touch.

If you guys havent read Kagan's new work "End of the Old Order" its a good read. I am enjoying his diagnosis of the period 1800-1805. Cant wait for his next volume to come out. Not REALLY anything NEW ... he just puts into print MORE on the diplomatic, economic and personal end of things than most works like CoN by Chandler or other campaign of 1805-1807 books do about the cause of the wars.

I get the idea that only guys like Dessaix, Davout and perhaps Lannes were capable men in independent roles. Funny enough but if Barclay had grown tired of the Allies he would have made a great French independent commander! I think that sometimes he had it all over the French commanders. I dont go for the idea that Napoleon didnt share his brilliant ideas. By 1815 these guys (French) should have had Napoleon's art of war down to a science.

Bill Peters
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:13 pm 
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I wonder how to simulate this in PTW...


Captain Alexey Tartyshev
Moscow Grenadiers Regiment
2nd Grenadier Division
8th Infantry Corps
2nd Army of the West (NWC)


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:18 pm 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by August Dean</i>
<br />I wonder how to simulate this in PTW...


Captain Alexey Tartyshev
Moscow Grenadiers Regiment
2nd Grenadier Division
8th Infantry Corps
2nd Army of the West (NWC)


<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Well do what I do when playing PTW. Instead of making Ney head to QB just move the entire army on the Prussian RIGHT.

Usually unhinges the Prussians and unless they can get the IV Corps up in time they are going to be defeated in detail.

Its takes awhile to get it rolling but once I and II Corps arrive on the Prussian right they are going to have their hands full. The French have to watch their left flank but for the most part should be able to keep the Anglo-Allied army at bay.

Bill Peters
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 7:06 pm 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bill Peters</i>
Well do what I do when playing PTW. Instead of making Ney head to QB just move the entire army on the Prussian RIGHT.



<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Quite unusual move. Haven’t thought about it this way.

Although I am more interested in simulating more or less historical factors, which forced commanders to do what they did. Like if Nappy attacked at Ligny and St Amand I would like to do so as well to experience the battle from historical perspective.

Unfortunately, the Artillery FP does not allow me to do so. As a result I am forced to adapt less historical strategy.

Considering this I though about modifying the OOB and dividing 8 guns units to 2 units of 4 guns. As a result overall artillery would hardly reach devastating FP of 40 + . Another good thing is that it will not affect musket fire so important in PTW. This might have more significant implications for NIR with 12 guns batteries.

I ll run some tests to get some statistical data on that.


Captain Alexey Tartyshev
Moscow Grenadiers Regiment
2nd Grenadier Division
8th Infantry Corps
2nd Army of the West (NWC)


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 1:35 am 
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Bill,


In PTW you can get the same effect by moving D'Erlons Corp and the Guard into the Prussian right. This lets Ney keep the Brits busy and out of the way. You end up in a manuevering battlefield, not a set-piece slugfest.

General de Division Doug Fuller
Duc de Montmorail et Comte de Hainaut
2e' Grenadiers a' Pied de la Vielle Garde
I Corp Commander
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:28 am 
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Greetings all - long time, no post.

Interesting discussion.

On Ligny, it should be remembered that Napoleon's plan was for a flank attack by I corps but, as we all know, events conspired to thwart this. Standard strategy from the Emperor, but it had served him well down the years.

Ney gets the scape-goat treatment for Bautzen as well. It was Napoleon's fault that Ney could not bring his entire wing into play, it was Berthier's fault that Ney's initial approach to the battlefield was on the wrong line, and Bertrand / Napoleon's error that the corps of Barclay and Yorck were not cut-off and destroyed during their retreat following their ill-conceived foray against Ney's advancing wing at Koeingswartha and Weissig. If Napoleon had doubts about Ney's capability he could have joined that wing during the night of 20th May and directed the flank attack himself. Ney's error at Bautzen was to stop his advance after taking Gleina and Preititz, being diverted by Kleist's counter-attack. Hindsight indicates that the French would probably have secured the decisive victory had he continued his advance in the direction of Hochkirch, but Ney, being Ney, he elected to deal with the immediate threat to his communication with the main army. And what was Napoleon doing during Ney's attack? What all good emperors do at such times. He was sleeping in a sheltered ravine amongst the batteries of VI corps.

On artillery, (BG series - though may apply to HPS engine as well). It certainly makes sense to standardise battery sizes for the following reason. Because of terrain modifiers, such as walls, hedges, or even a skirmisher screen, a 12 gun battery firing at a target at maximum range has a chance to hit it if behind such cover. A 6 gun battery of identical calibre, should be able to hit the target with half the frequency. But the way the engine works, it can not inflict casualties at all on this target. So, battery standardisation (in size) is a good idea. I would break down the Russian batteries into two x six guns, and keep require that they be kept together so that they still represent the 12 gun battery that they were. Remeber to increase the ammunitiona allowance accordingly. I would strongly recommend that playing NIR you use the New Settings project files with reduced morale, decreased ammunition, increased cavalry movement and turn off the morale boosting optional rules. You will wind up with a game more to do with manoeuvre and a lot less slaughter.

In PTW, do the same. Turn off those morale boosting optional rules. Defending the crossings will become a much greater challenge, when each unit placed there is exposed to artillery fire and will rout in short order. If your opponent uses artillery to defend the crossings, manoeuvre yours to gain flank shots against his until he withdraws them. The fighting at Ligny lasted 6 hours I suspect that no one unit was engaged for that length of time. Formations, whether company, batallion, regiment, brigade etc would be engaged for a while, then replaced by units from the second line. They might take part again later on but I doubt if any were engaged the whole time. This is why casualties are histroically lighter than in the games. In most games, every unit begins moving on Turn 1, with the apparent sole aim of making contact and beginning the blood-fest. This is not how the battles were fought historically, so why expect a historical outcome from it [;)]

On the original point, I would suggest that artillery not be left exposed like that during a night turn, get them back in the security of their division / corps. Alternatively, play with a house rule that allows no night melee - the thought of a battalion column "creeping-up" undetected on a battery , is somewhat amusing.[:)]

Final thought on competent commanders. I think there were many, on all sides. For the French, of course, they were always over-shadowed by the genious of Napoleon. A particular favourite is Eugene who, in spite of not wanting it, assumed command of the remmnants of the army in 1812 and prevented the seemingly inevitable advance of the Russians on France even with the defection of Prussia, which was enough to send Murat scuttling back to Naples. To follow this up with his succesful campaign against the Austrians in Italy in 1814 was another good performance from him.

Trust all is well with you all

Mark


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 12:03 pm 
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I am using NS in my PTW current battle. Plus we use modified PDT and increased the pike movement cost to 2 otherwise units move with unhistorical high speed of 4.8 km/h
Also decreased the quality for all three armies. For example, Young Guard is only 5 quality now. IMHO it is much more fun now.

However, we could still identified two issues

Skirmishes – French player can utilize his superiority in light troops (thats after allowing Prussian fusiliers to detach one company) by forming a massive skirmish line in front of the Prussians and shooting them down, without involving formed battalions.

The second one is artillery firepower mentioned below.

I think by resolving these two the game will have much more historical in terms of tactics and casualties.


Captain Alexey Tartyshev
Moscow Grenadiers Regiment
2nd Grenadier Division
8th Infantry Corps
2nd Army of the West (NWC)


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 1:31 am 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by August Dean</i>

Skirmishes – French player can utilize his superiority in light troops (thats after allowing Prussian fusiliers to detach one company) by forming a massive skirmish line in front of the Prussians and shooting them down, without involving formed battalions.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I don't have the NS PTW pdt table to hand, but, to curb the imbalance of skirmishers, I would modify the fire table by either changing the 1-2 Fire line so that only fatigue can result, or introduce a new line for 1 FP that causes only fatigue (no casualties). In this way, larger skirmish companies that do not move can inflict casualties but the smaller ones can only cause fatigue. Still a nuisance, but much less potent.

Another option is to alter the oob so that the Prussian fusiliers can deploy a skirmish company to provide a protective line to their battalions.

Regarding the artillery, I know it's stating the obvious but, it pays to do what the commanders of the day did, and avoid exposing the men to large enemy batteries at close range. I suspect that the NS files have allowed about 8-10 rounds per allied battery, giving the Prussians about 240 - 300 rounds. (No point including more than 1 or 2 rounds for the reinforcing batteries as they arrive too late to take part in the battle). Assuming that fire is at round-shot range, (2FP in the weapon effectiveness table), this ammunition supply will enable the Prussian guns to account for 3,500 to 4,400 casualties against French battalions in line in open terrain. [25% higher if in column. If screened by skirmishers, hedges etc, this range falls to 3,000 to 3,750 and, if in a village it drops to 2,500 to 3,125 men.

None of these numbers appears too extreme for a percentage of the 10,000 casualties the French suffered.

Now, if the casualties are all inflicted at case-shot range (say 3 hexes), the Prussian artillery with 240 - 300 rounds, can be expected to inflict 6,500 to 10,500 casualties, a percentage much higher than can actually have happened on the day. But this is not because the artillery in the game are too powerful, it is because the French did not expose themselves to case-shot all day long. Augerau's corps at Eylau is a good example of what will happen to your corps in a very short space of time if it does stray into case-shot range.

What I am trying to say is that I would caution against weakening the artillery which is reasonably representative of its true capability. The high casualties you are seeing are most likely caused by ahistoric use (deployment at 2 hex range from river crossing, units approaching too close and giving the opponent case-shot at choice targets etc). If the enemy have brought guns forward to defend the crossing points, use manoeuvre to force your opponent to move them by attacking elsewhere, by bringing forward your own batteries to use counter-battery fire and so on. There are 26 turns in the game so there is plenty of time for such activities.

Finally, on movement, taking the French Pas de route and Pas ordinaire as the road and cross-country movement rates, these should translate to about 8.5 and 7.5 hexes per move. Sadly there is no reduction in move for units that have spent the turn firing, so a compromise figure of 6 hexes per turn does not seem unreasonable.

Mark


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 8:09 am 
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I agree with Mark completely and well said sir. The artillery in the Napoleonic wars was lethal at close range due to a combination of the dense formations of the targets and the machine gun like effect of canister. if you read your history you will find numerous accounts of the terrible damage canister did to whole formations. A good commander should allow for this exactly as Mark suggests.

Capitaine Colin Knox,
4e Comp / 2e Artillerie a Cheval
2e Brigade
3e Division Cavalerie Legere
IIIe Corps
Armee du Nord


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 10:33 am 
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Mark I like the idea of the smaller skm coys only inflicting fatige with new fire parameters. I think that has a lot of merit, especially introducing a 1FP line. Simple yet achieves the desired effect/result.

Maj Micheal Ellwood
König Regiment
1 Bde, 22 Div
VII Saxon Corps
L' Armée du Rhin


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