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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 6:25 am 
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Well, I'm definately not such a specialist in Peninsula War to make such an estimates by memory. Definately shouldn't have done. Of course 50 000 is much better estimate with only exception of Vittoria.

But how many guns did sides have at Vittoria? Hom many cavalry? What front was the main? And was this battle as intensive as say Austerlitz, Jena-Auerstedt, Eylau, Friedland, Wagram, Borodino, Dresden or Waterloo, leave alone Leipzig! Nothing of that kind. About 13000 casualties (including about 7000 pows) for the french vs. about 6000 for the Aliies at Salamanca, 10 000 (2000 pows) vs. 4500 at Vittoria.

Really I made mistake in numbers but the main argument still stands - the battle was not so much intensive that a regular infantry unit would be unable to bear the fatigue and do what it's ordered to. Am I wrong?

<center>Image</center>
<center><b>Eyo Imperatorskogo Velichestva Leib-Kirassirskogo polku
General-Mayor Anton Valeryevich Kosyanenko
Commander of the Second Army of the West </b></center>


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 11:34 am 
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May I point out that Northern Italy was never a major front at any time yet it had more significance to the wars than the battles of Moreau and Charles ...

Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, 5ème Division, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 12:14 pm 
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Gentlemen,

You all seem to be dancing around my only point and getting off the subject a wee bit [:)]. I am talking the individual unit in battle, nothing more. Come down into the smoke and smell the battle with me, leave the big picture aside.

My point is - "That the British Line units in the Penninsular were exceptionally hard to break. Therefore I would like to see a general higher quality rating for them in a future Penninsular Campaign game." or "Something that reflects this".

It is an acknowledge fact that the British infantry were very good throughout <u>the Napoleonic Wars when facing the French</u>. Yes Commanders and yes tactical position all played their part but still the steadfastness and shear fghting ability were CONSISTANTLY above average during the penninsular Campaign and enabled them to best the French and their allies even on a bad day (Albuera!). I am not concerned with actions outside Europe.

Also refer to the unit actions at Rolica and Salamanca where the British had a hard time of it in the attack but still managed to succeed through a combination of tactical positioning AND infantry toughness/perceverance. Niether were the walk over many assume from cursory histories.

All situations faced by individual British units at crisis situations were saved by this perceverance and refusal to break. Given the same situation even good European units falted and broke (Russian Guards at Austerlitz, French Guard Chasseurs at Waterloo).

Please are there ANY other examples of British units breaking during the Penninsular Campaign that anyone is aware of?

I can't believe I am putting the case for the British!![8]
[;)]

Regards
Mike Ellwood
VII (Saxon) Corps, ADR


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 2:09 pm 
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I think that HPS Waterloo models the Brits very well. Mostly A and B quality (Foot Guards get A++) and good quality leaders.

I think a large part of routing in this game is how units are used. If you fight like Wellington, against the armies he faced, then you will get similar results.

Wellington's troops almost always had some sort of cover from artillery, did a better job at screening skirmishers than the other Coalition armies did until 1813 or so, and covered his flanks well. His troops simply were not put under the same stresses as others. At Waterloo, a lot of British soldiers fled, but few of the units broke. And of course, that was a close run thing.

So, I think that if yuo give the Brits C and B early on and A and B later, when combined with the terrain of the Peninsula and the infantry heavy armies of the French, you will get historical results.

Feldmarschall Jim 'Prinz' Pfluecke
Commander, Austrian Cavalry Reserve
3 Graf O'Reilly Chevauxleger Rgt
Hahn Grenadier Bn


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 3:40 pm 
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P-U-H-L-E-E-E-Z-E!!! The non sequiturs bang as loud as colliding empty boxcars on a lonely train track!

"The British troops should not get a bonus because its performance is due to Wellington. Prior to Wellesley's appearance the British troops had average performance."

What?!!

Replace 'British' with 'French' and 'Wellesley' with 'Napoleon' and hark back to late 1790's in Northern Italy during the years of the Republic. The French didn't fare too well without young Napoleon's guiding mastermind influence. However, in TS/HPS game terms the French command structure is set up to model the superior French performance under Napoleon. Also in game terms, the typically superior leadership and command ratings of the French leaders are set up to reflect Napoleon's influence. The French army just didn't do that well without him in command or nearby in the theater in command. Yet that doesn't stop the present game system from reflecting the French army performance typified when under Nappy.

So say again how Wellington's troops shouldn't get a bonus that was REPEATEDLY DEMONSTRATED BY EXPERIENCE/OBSERVATION during grand tactical battles in the peninsula? It's already in the game system now but just for France and Nappy. And in the only battle that Nappy and Wellesley fought, Wellesley won.

OK. Let's analyze another argument previously used. Just because the theater is smaller and the forces typically a corps or two doesn't change the argument to make the British troops have some improved quality or system adjustment to reflect their rare instance of routing. We're not going to put the British Peninsula veterans up against units outside the peninsula. All the games so far both Talonsoft and HPS have not simulated the peninsula. So don't use past games as an example of what we should expect for a simulation of that situation. How accurate will it be to model a peninsula battlefield and then have many British units rout away in situation after situation. Didn't happen. Ergo, we would conclude -- at least an objective reviewer -- that the simulation was a failure as reflecting reality.

Finally, and this is true for Anglo-American forces for the past two hundred years as well (read "Influence of Sea Power Upon History" by Mahon if you disagree), the absolutely uncontested English command of the seas made their armies always very well supplied. The English rarely debarked the troops unless the navy could keep a link. (This also is true today with United States. Both -- and its interesting that the U.S. is the cultural/etc off-spring of UK -- are supreme naval [air] powers in their respective eras.) Don't underestimate the power of supply on morale. Nappy said something to that effect with "The morale of an army travels in its stomach." And so on.

So Mike, stand your ground. It's quite solid.

Cheers!




Col. Dirk Smith
1e Bg, 16 Dv, V Corps
Armee du Rhin


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 5:38 pm 
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Hi All
Jim P and I are playing Waterloo historical at the moment and I have given the British infantry a fierce pounding in a series of crossfires and its on the whole held well. So as per Jim's comments I agree there is no need for a change. I do think C is a bit low for the British line infantry though but as JP says they are not rated as such in HPS Waterloo so not sure where the debate is coming from as there are no other titles they are in[:D].

Salute!





Colonel Colin Knox,
Baron de l'Empire
2e Regiment Gardes d'Honneur
La Jeune Garde
IIIe Corps ADN
http://www.aspire.co.nz/colinknoxnwc.htm

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 6:52 pm 
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In answer to some of Mike's claims. First, asking of any British unit broke ... you have to ask yourself did the French ever get over a ridge and exert good pressure on them? The answer is ... not very often. Most of the way that the French fought in the Peninsular Wars is not characteristic of commanders like Davout or Lannes. Division commanders like St. Hilare or Gudin were missing from the Peninsular.

When you go to the campaign of 1808 you see a decent performance by the French. Wellington hadnt taken command. Sir John Moore did a good job with what he had but he was vastly outnumbered. The French lose at Bailen to the Spanish ... but mainly that was a fluke when the Emperor was in command.

Now fast forward ... its the PLACEMENT by Wellington of the troops that mattered. When it came to the crucial moment he was on the spot. Not so with the French centralized form of command. This comes from having ONE front on the battlefield active. Thus rarely were the French able to coordinate an assault on more than one front. Usually Wellesley had time to get from one portion of the battlefield to the other.

Now lets study Beresford. He didnt do very well in an independent role. And thus the British didnt do well either.

Which leads to ... Waterloo. Ney and Jerome directing the attack on Hougomont throughout the battle. Borodino ... countless attacks on the Redoubt.

Fixation on a physical objective usually dooms players in our games as well. The old magnet ... attack the main body rather than chip away at the peripheral.

My main counter to the British being far superior (which is what the golden morale would do) is that they were not as the Russians who were known to die right down to almost the last man and stay in place. I cant think of any British unit taking 50 percent losses while in place and remaining there.

Now if Rich does decide to put this in the game (golden morale) we also expect that once you launch a charge with your BRITISH cavalry that they take off and basically run away. But I doubt that you really want the game to be historical .... right?

So its just another case of trying to justify one thing while compltetely overlooking another. If you really want a British army ... kiss your cav goodbye. They were some of the hardest cavalry to control. Suggestions for them please?

Page 105 of Paget's book on the campaigns talks about the Connaught Rangers and 3 other battalians driving off 11 French battalians. This is something that is hard to portray in our games other than to say ... the French stay in columns and get hosed while the British fire in line.

I have nothing but admiration for the British in the attack. The problem is that our game engine doesnt reflect this very often. What happens normally is:

1. On the French turn they move up, take fire and melee. The disorder the British just by meleeing them (assume that the French lose).

2. The British (usually) dont regain order right away. This flies in the face of their fierce Celtic style counterattack where often they chased the French right back down the hill!

You just cant have these in the game. Not much I can do about it. I have advocated non-disorder alot for the defender. It would stop alot of cheap attacks by (skirmishers) small units used just to disorder troops (I do it sometimes just to draw an effect in some games where I am testing out the series).

Thus 300 Old Guard have zip zero chance of winning a melee against a militia unit of 900 men.

Thus to cap all of this off: I have said before that the British had a fierceness that the French lacked. They were not afraid of drawing steel and going right into the fray. The French on the other hand usually shied away from that. How do you model that? I dont know that you can with our current game. Perhaps someone down the line will put that into a set of minature rules ... or new game engine.

I suppose if you made the British line A++ you might achieve the above. But they would still disorder when attacked more than likely.

Perhaps you havent read my ideas on a revised melee system. Its much in line with what Nosworthy portrays in his book, With Musket, Cannon and Sword which I find very fine reading.

Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, 5ème Division, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2007 1:27 am 
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Thanks Guys,

Jim and Colin I still must disagree as currently the way the game works B and C British line units (any nationality) will rout with normal punishment/threat. Whereas in the Penninsular it hardly ever occured for British Line units in even the most trying/difficult (enfiladed, rear attacked, in skm order, uphill, downhill, not in square versus cav, not Wellington in comd) situations!

Dirk you do see what I am getting at and I agree with what you say in regards the command system too. But we could open the whole system up to improvement, I want to focus on just this for now and once I have more justification AND ideas for solutions I would look at expanding the issue quickly as I'm looking for a possible flow on effect.

Bill, yes now your getting into the game mechanics/sytem which I appreciate your input on (I'm not that "in the know" about the system) as that is more what I'm looking at/for. You've given me a few good points to ponder, give me a couple of days and I think I will have a few ideas to throw out (including maybe the cavalry issue at a latter date as I've a couple of possible solutions there too [:D]). Tell me Bill why was it a no go for non-disordering in defence? A difficult game engine issue or a personal/opinion issue[?]

<u>I will start a new thread specifically for what I'm on about. </u>

But anyone please throw in your ideas and comments here until then. There is a wealth of well read, knowledgable and experienced opinions, view points and ideas that I hope continue to speak up.
"Discussion and discourse are the mothers of all compromise"
For now though I/we are looking for a solution that covers the Penninsular Campaign first and then possibly future game mechanics/system.

Regards
Mike Ellwood
VII Corps, ADR


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2007 6:03 am 
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This site is not the best source of course but still:
http://napoleonistyka.atspace.com/Fuengirola.htm
http://napoleonistyka.atspace.com/Albuera_1811.html
Here the statistics in the bottomn is interesting with casualties of 60% and higher british batallions were broken and lost all of their Colors. The worst disgrace for a unit of the era.

And the figures offered earlier were intended to show that British units did not IN GENERAL face situations so desperate that ANY other regular unit will have to rout out. When they did like Albuera they routed and even yielded their Colors. Just like any other regular unit.

And, Mike, what else do you need? B quality units if led properly (i.e. within command range)are extremely hard to rout. You have to pound them with heavy artillery fire for hours and then melee with bayonets or charge with cav and then deliver some nasty shots to make them rout. To repeat British units on the Peninsula didn't in general receive such a kind of stress. Otherwise casualties in every battle would be much higher. And of course units that start the war at C quality in 1808 after 4 years of war will no doubt be Bs and As. What else is needed?

<center>Image</center>
<center><b>Eyo Imperatorskogo Velichestva Leib-Kirassirskogo polku
General-Mayor Anton Valeryevich Kosyanenko
Commander of the Second Army of the West </b></center>


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2007 11:49 am 
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Tell me Bill why was it a no go for non-disordering in defence? A difficult game engine issue or a personal/opinion issue ...

Something I cant answer on. Frankly its irritating that 100 skirmishers attacking a column can disorder them ...

Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, 5ème Division, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]

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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2007 6:07 pm 
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Hi Bill
I have noticed that the skirmisher attack in Jena does not disorder the formed big formations even if it inflicts casualties.

Is there a difference in the engines or was that a fluke?

Regards
Colin

Colonel Colin Knox,
Baron de l'Empire
2e Regiment Gardes d'Honneur
La Jeune Garde
IIIe Corps ADN
http://www.aspire.co.nz/colinknoxnwc.htm

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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2007 6:57 pm 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Colin Knox</i>
<br />Hi Bill
I have noticed that the skirmisher attack in Jena does not disorder the formed big formations even if it inflicts casualties.

Is there a difference in the engines or was that a fluke?

Regards
Colin

Colonel Colin Knox,
Baron de l'Empire
2e Regiment Gardes d'Honneur
La Jeune Garde
IIIe Corps ADN
http://www.aspire.co.nz/colinknoxnwc.htm

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<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

In meleeing or by fire?

Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, 5ème Division, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]

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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2007 9:52 am 
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Hi Bill
Melee,
cheers
Colin

Colonel Colin Knox,
Baron de l'Empire
2e Regiment Gardes d'Honneur
La Jeune Garde
IIIe Corps ADN
http://www.aspire.co.nz/colinknoxnwc.htm

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 3:15 pm 
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Bar keep can I have my bill I order a 1663 Kronenbourg,and got a jug jar of English ale?

Col de Art 6/3 II Corps AN Marbot CS


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 4:17 am 
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Colin - I have experimented with this engine and you still can disorder formed infantry. It all depends on the result and the size of the skirmisher. For instance: try meleeing with 100 skirmishers against a 200 man formed battalian. In my test it still disorders them.

It wouldnt be right if 45 skirmishers could disorder 700 men in a square.

Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, 5ème Division, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]

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