Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)

This post takes over from the discussion in the previous post “The Glory Yearsâ€

I agree with your proposed quality ratings for British infantry units (although I do have to declare an inborn and unshakeable bias towards the red-coated 'scum'[:D]). The British musket fire values, as seen in the Waterloo game, would add to their performance too. You would need reasonable leader command ratings too to ensure prompt disorder recovery. Of course all this would depend on the relative values of the other units and armies in any Peninsula game, to ensure that a credible simulation is possible.

I'm not sure about your idea for disallowing any melee attack on the frontal arc of a steady (non-disordered) infantry unit in the open. I can see the point you are making but sometimes an apparently steady unit would just take flight at the sight of a feared enemy, perhaps influence by other factors too. Your idea might be better implemented if a melee attack on a good quality, non fatigued, good order unit was harder to win than present, but much easier when the enemy was disordered and fatigued, i.e. do it with the game's numbers and combat calculations and modifiers rather than setting inflexible rules. That would deter/punish many attacks on the 'steady' unit and reward preliminary softening up. Another option is to have an attacker morale check before melee, perhaps modified by the state of the defending unit. One could argue for a defender morale check before melee too, with much greater chance of standing if in good order and fresh.

<center>[url="http://homepage.ntlworld.com/a.r.barlow/Napoleonic/nap.htm"]Lieutenant Colonel Antony Barlow[/url]
~ [url="http://www.geocities.com/anglo_allied_army_stats/Anglo_Allied_Army_Cavalry_Corps.htm"]2nd British (Union) Brigade, Anglo-Allied Cavalry Corps[/url] ~
~ [url="http://www.geocities.com/militaireacademie/dragoons.html"]4th (Royal Irish) Dragoon Guards[/url] ~
</center>

I would counter that the Prussians of 1806 were a very steadfast lot when deployed in Line formation. Hours of skirmisher fire was needed to gradually wear them down but it wasnt until the French actually made a determined assault on them at Jena that they broke.

The key to the British NOT routing as much was that:

1. The British had developed a Light infantry that could hold its own vs. the French voltigeurs. Thus they were insulated from the pesky skirmishers of the French.

2. Wellington used reverse slope tactics and saved his troops from being fired on by artillery vs. Blucher at Ligny.

Yes, I agree that the British were steady under fire but remember that the Duke kept them from the majority of the fire that would disorder many an Austrian, French or Prussian column/line.

I do not agree that they could sit for hours like the Russians and watch large gaps form in their ranks. Do I have examples? No, because the Duke was a great tactician as well as CinC. But put the British at Borodino alongside the Russians .... I dont think for one minute that a battalian of 500 men would endure the amount of punishment that their Russian allies would.

I will also note that from what I have read, the Russians didnt do so hot either when their officers were shot down. Not quite like the Prussian army whose privates were more scared to death of their NCOs and officers than the enemy, the average Russian soldier was a "sheep" and would do as he was told as long as he had his "shepherd" around.

Alot has been said that the Waterloo army was not up to the quality of the ones in the Peninsular. This may be true but they did endure the full weight of the French army at that battle.

I play with Rout Limiting on because the kind of catastropic routs that I have seen it inflict on a game were extremely rare throughout the Napoleonic wars. I did not say the Revolutionary Wars (French).

As to A morale - I think it too high. B is just fine. Keep them behind the ridge, put skirmishers out in front to keep the French skirmishers away, keep some cavalry handy (dont hear you calling for an uncontrolled cavalry rule my friend) and like Wellington you too can keep your infantry from routing away.

There is alot about the rout system we have that I would like to see changed (their inability to move on hex in some situations or the fact that they move well away from their own lines, scattering to the breeze) but as to morale grades, just play Eckmuhl a bit and you will see why I am against high morales. I plan on lowering morales in Eckmuhl in the not so distant future (now that school is almost over). We have seen units stand for hours and not rout in that title (and Wagram of course). Mainly French morales but also some Austrians as well.

Final thought: I didnt mention it in Rich's thread about meleeing but one option I would like to see is that Disordered units should not be able to melee. Like the ACW series this would stop the attacker from using worn out troops (I have done it - plead guilty) to melee with.

Charging cavalry would be exempted from this rule for their followup attacks.

Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, 5ème Division, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]

Bill,

You make some good points about the need to keep the actual morale ratings lower to get the game to play in a more credible manner. I suppose Mike's post needs addressing in terms of the relative morale ratings between different units and armies, rather than stating it should be 'A' or 'B' etc., i.e. should a British line unit have the same or higher morale rating than, say, a regular French unit, or a Young Guard Unit, regardless of what the actual value would be for a particular game.

<center>[url="http://homepage.ntlworld.com/a.r.barlow/Napoleonic/nap.htm"]Lieutenant Colonel Antony Barlow[/url]
~ [url="http://www.geocities.com/anglo_allied_army_stats/Anglo_Allied_Army_Cavalry_Corps.htm"]2nd British (Union) Brigade, Anglo-Allied Cavalry Corps[/url] ~
~ [url="http://www.geocities.com/militaireacademie/dragoons.html"]4th (Royal Irish) Dragoon Guards[/url] ~
</center>

Mike,

To repeat French had very limited ability to soften up British infantry line. They just lacked artillery pieces. And with special British tactics this ability was even more decreased so there was no really heavy fighting pressure and fatigue. Please bring out these numerous cases you are talking about. With time under fire and loses suffered. Specially the ones where "fell back in disorder" was the case because this expression almost always should be read as "routed away". Bring them out and you'll see in most cases these units didn't suffer enough to rout away.

And one more thing from the experience of Colonial Campaign Club where British forces of the era are extensively used with HPS engines. People advocate for British regulars having C quality othervise (with general level of Bs and some As) they actually have golden morale.

<center></center>
<center><b>Eyo Imperatorskogo Velichestva Leib-Kirassirskogo polku
General-Mayor Anton Valeryevich Kosyanenko
Commander of the Second Army of the West </b></center>

This topic has got me wondering about something ...

How do the programers determine what Quality/Morale ratings are assigned in the games ?

<center>
[img]</center>
<center>Monsieur le Marechal Baron John Corbin
Commanding L'Armee du Rhin
Grande Duc de Piave et Comte de Beauvais
Commanding the Division de Cavalerie de la Moyenne Garde
NWC President</center>

I think they set up a range of quality ratings then stack 7/8ths of the units at the highest end! [:D]

Colonel Al Amos
1erè Brigade Commandant
2ème Division de Dragons

Hi all,

Guys I am talking specifically ROUTING not disorder! Also as Anthony points out, it is more the qualitive difference between the British line and the other combatants (all nationalities) <u>in the Peninsular </u>only!

Bill your comment ref Britis standing for hours under fire is correct, it just didn't happen much in the Peninsular, Talavera was the closest I feel but again there the British stood firm even if they did pull back in the centre, but again no routs. As for your Borodino comparison I think Waterloo between Hougomount and La Haye Sainte (1.30pm -7.30pm!)is very similiar, reverse slope or not, check out the casualties and first hand accounts.

Yes officer casualties had a major effect on unit moral, order and cohesion. Something again that I feel could be put into future titles [:)]

Anton, their overall campagn moral, steadness and ability to achieve is what I am on about, not just a case of the casualties suffered. As for examples of punishment meeted out and their standing or continuing to attack I have given them previously. You can read in depth on Corruna, Rolica, Talavera, Salamanca, Fuentes de Onoro and Albuera. All have cases of units suffering under heavy combat but still prevailling. A number of different national sources is required to get the fuller picture you require.

I do notice no other examples in the Peninsular are forthcoming.

I would welcome reducing all moral grades for a Peninsular Campaign as long as the British line is qualatively superior to all but French Guard who I would put a step or two above. On a par with Young Guard for the bulk of the British line and a step better than good/veteran French line.

I have no issue with the tactical positioning and use of the troops and those effects, advantage and disadvantages. What you all say is correct. BUT as Napoleon stated,

"Moral is to fire power as three is to one"

shows that the moral effect in the game needs some tweeking. I am trying to begin the development of that tweeking using just one theatre of action that I believe is a good isolated and definable campaign, prior to production [:D]

I too would like to see an increase in the moral effects of terrain advantage/disadvantage, of surprise and catching units unprepared (whether that be via a flank or wrong formation) and in leadership losses at unit and Bde levels. However I am concentrating on this one aspect at the moment. These other issues are fallling out and therefore also need attention as they all tie in to what we are trying to achieve.

Let us continue [:)]

Lt Col Mike Ellwood
22 Div
VII Corps, ADR

Ok, Mike, if you don't want to I'll post such a study myself in a separate topic. Of course any comments and extensions would be welcome as I will use only online sources accessable "within a single click"

<center></center>
<center><b>Eyo Imperatorskogo Velichestva Leib-Kirassirskogo polku
General-Mayor Anton Valeryevich Kosyanenko
Commander of the Second Army of the West </b></center>

Hi Mike and Anton
I would like to add that an interesting point of debate comes out of this - is a historical description such as 'fell back in disorder' the same as a rout in one of our games?

I agree with Anton that it is. Mainly because in our games the units usually recover fairly quickly and head back into the fray. A full on 'rout' such as the Saxons at Wagram virtually ruled units out for the rest of the day or a least more than for 30mins or 2 turns.

At Waterloo their are some examples of British/scots units of Packs brigade falling back in disorder in front of DeErlons attack.

Now these things said I agree with at least some A rated British line units as in most games there are certainly some A rated French line units.

Regards



Colonel Colin Knox,
Baron de l'Empire
2e Regiment Gardes d'Honneur
La Jeune Garde
IIIe Corps ADN
http://www.aspire.co.nz/colinknoxnwc.htm

Hiya,

Yes I think we have a disconnect over terms here.[8]

<u>By Rout </u>I mean a full unit routing away totally out of order and control. This would as you say take more than a couple of turns to recover from and be ready to again enter the fray.

<u>By disorder </u>or falling back in disorder I consider the troops repulsed or pushed back in some disarry and disorder BUT still with some formation and control which can be recovered within a short space of time and could still defend to a degree whilst reordereing/reforming.

I do not consider rout and falling back in disorder the same thing, specifically due to the control aspect.

And yes the recovery from rout in these games is a bit quick at times but that is why one of the reasons I am raising this. That the British, even if pushed back in disorder, recovered quickly and returned to the fray. That it was not a common occurance that the British routed and therefore should have the moral level that will replicate this.

Yes I'm aware of Kempt and Pack's "near collapse" behind the hedgerow/sunken lane but then those same troops (eg 92nd Highlanders)then went over to the attack with the Household and Union Brigades 'trot/walk' into 2 and 1/2 Div's of D'Erlons Corps. But again that was not the Peninsular.

So I am still holding my ground awaiting any telling shots [;)]

Lt Col Mike Ellwood
ADR

So Mike as our games have no true big routs is it not a case of saying that the routing rules are actually more a retirement in disorder as oppossed to a rout? In which case the issue is not unit quality but the rules themselves.



Colonel Colin Knox,
Baron de l'Empire
2e Regiment Gardes d'Honneur
La Jeune Garde
IIIe Corps ADN
http://www.aspire.co.nz/colinknoxnwc.htm

Hi Colin,

I wouldn't say the game doesn't allow for big routs. I have had a few games where the best part of a Bde has routed and taken several other units with them. So given a well structured and supported attack I think the game allows for realistic portrayals in that regard. At least I have experienced it in a way that makes sense to my understanding and readings.

Getting something in the order of D'Erlons Corps(-) heading south in such short order would I think be at the <u>extreme end of the scale </u>(with majority of moral tests routing in successsion) but not impossible. They did suffer cannon fire through multiple ranks increasing the effectivness of each battery firing (seems to be a max of six btys, maybe as low as three, no more than 36 guns). The advance took no longer than 30mins. The last 100m they were met by heavy musket fire then the short 'struggle' for order and control of the crest. Then to be met by the Household Bde whilst disordered and in line. To me that would be do-able in these games.

I am saying that the British line should be harder to ROUT than their current average B and C ratings allow. The disorder issue or chances to disorder I have no problem with.

Lt Col Mike Ellwood
VII Saxon Corps, ADR

Hi Mike
Just so you know I agree that at least some of the british line should be A rated. They were certainly superb with their firepower in particular.

As for the game it's the recovery and return to the fray that I think is to quick to simulate the majority of routs in the real battles.

I agree there can be the odd mass rout in the game but they just get back in there so quick its not a historic rout in my opinion. Only my opinion [:D]. On the table top we have retire, retreat and rout so 3 states. I would compare HPS to either retreat or retire.

Anyhow just to reinforce if French Line can get an A rating (as it does in some cases in the games) it would be pretty stupid not to rate the Penisular Poms the same. So in conclusion we are both right[:D]

Best Regards



Colonel Colin Knox,
Baron de l'Empire
2e Regiment Gardes d'Honneur
La Jeune Garde
IIIe Corps ADN
http://www.aspire.co.nz/colinknoxnwc.htm