Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)

The auto square and auto charge for the single phase would bring in their own issues.

For the multi phase adding in the ability to change formation or counter charge is valid and we have asked John for it in the past.


Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]

Bill,

Thanks for the update. I really like the idea of a engine driven Embedded Melee Phase. I think its a great idea.

Please no auto-formation changes. They are to easy to game. The preset counter-charges would be nice though.

Rich,

I use square formations a lot. They are especially useful in protecting your artillery from charging cavalry. Its also a good idea to anchor your line with one. They can be a paticularly nasty surprise for enemy charging cavalry coming over a ridge or into a blindspot. Lots of times you can use it just to prevent a cavalry charge becuase you can't afford the penetration (using the EMS system). I find it a useful formation, especially on defense where the 360 ZOC can come in handy. If playing with the NME rule it can really mess up an advance by blocking a large chunk of terrain with bodies and ZOC.

Marechal Doug Fuller
Duc de Montmorail et Comte de Hainaut
2e' Grenadiers a' Pied de la Vielle Garde
I Corp Commander
AdN

I agree with Doug on the square issue. I too use them a lot for such things as artillery protection. Also just to correct one thing the cavalry charge phase is after the def phase in BG so units do not automatically form square if charged. The player must choose to do so before knowing if the cavalry will charge. Pretty similar to the HPS system really.

How? - well you do not have a cavalry charge phase so you must position you cavalry facing the right way to charge the move prior thus giving you opponent time to react and form squares.

Personally I think it would be boring if everytime you changed an inf unit it automatically formed square. Not to mention the unbalance it creates if you have this and no cavalry charge phase.

IMHO the game system is fine as is. Perhaps some minor tweaks would be good but to make major changes will satisfy some at the detriment of others. [:D]

Regards to all



Colonel Colin Knox,
Baron de l'Empire
2e Regiment Gardes d'Honneur
La Jeune Garde
IIIe Corps ADN
http://www.aspire.co.nz/colinknoxnwc.htm

One big reason why most if not all of my playtest group likes the 10 min move is that its very hard to not be able to get into square before cavalry charges. The movement ranges are less and thus you have more time to react.

Thus in Jena its a bit less of a problem than in the other games in the series. You go into square when you see a threat appear. You limber up and move your guns away before they get run over. I am able to do this in 85-90 percent of my defensive situations. If I lose guns its primarily because I left them behind on purpose in order to cause more losses. I cant remember a game lately where I was caught by surprise and my guns were lost.

For infantry squares - I have had some fail to square but it was at such short range that it was no surprise that it failed.

I remember in Scott Bowden's Empire III rules that he showed typical division formations. In several of them the French had their flanks protected by infantry already in square. I dont know how accurate that is but for me that is a good idea. I think a square on each side of the formation was the overall picture that Bowden gave of the French defense (chess pun).

Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]

Bill,

You are very correct about the Empire III rules. The diagrams for typical division defense attacks work pretty well in the HPS system and I remember them fondly from past days.

As for faily to form square. You can't beleive the surprise you get when you order a unit to form square and it routs! That will get you attention - especially if its late in your move and there is no one left top cover the hole!!!

There is some good advice in these pages for our junior officers by the way!

Marechal Doug Fuller
Duc de Montmorail et Comte de Hainaut
2e' Grenadiers a' Pied de la Vielle Garde
I Corp Commander
AdN

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by buffpilot</i>
<br />Bill,

You are very correct about the Empire III rules. The diagrams for typical division defense attacks work pretty well in the HPS system and I remember them fondly from past days.

As for faily to form square. You can't beleive the surprise you get when you order a unit to form square and it routs! That will get you attention - especially if its late in your move and there is no one left top cover the hole!!!

There is some good advice in these pages for our junior officers by the way!

Marechal Doug Fuller
Duc de Montmorail et Comte de Hainaut
2e' Grenadiers a' Pied de la Vielle Garde
I Corp Commander
AdN

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Oh I know all about the "surprise" when failing to form square. Gets me too sometimes.

Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by buffpilot</i>
<br />Bill,

Thanks for the update. I really like the idea of a engine driven Embedded Melee Phase. I think its a great idea.

Please no auto-formation changes. They are to easy to game. The preset counter-charges would be nice though.

Rich,

I use square formations a lot. They are especially useful in protecting your artillery from charging cavalry. Its also a good idea to anchor your line with one. They can be a paticularly nasty surprise for enemy charging cavalry coming over a ridge or into a blindspot. Lots of times you can use it just to prevent a cavalry charge becuase you can't afford the penetration (using the EMS system). I find it a useful formation, especially on defense where the 360 ZOC can come in handy. If playing with the NME rule it can really mess up an advance by blocking a large chunk of terrain with bodies and ZOC.

Marechal Doug Fuller
Duc de Montmorail et Comte de Hainaut
2e' Grenadiers a' Pied de la Vielle Garde
I Corp Commander
AdN

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Doug,

You are absolutely correct. Any automatic feature could be manipulated. We push the engine pretty hard as is, or in the case of the ZOC, I guess it is now more pushed pretty hard. I often used the maneuver (block the two rear and attach from the flank, repeat as needed to destroy enemy formation) and had it done to me on several occasions,(just ask Bill about our bloody ZOC skirmish during testing). I can just imagine the tactics that could be devised to lure auto charges out from an enemy so as to surround and destroy them, or induce a formation in line to go square so that one's own line of infantry could come off better in the firefight.

As has been pointed out, the 10 minute turn with its lowered movemnt rate has put a much better flow back in the game. Combined with NME, the feel of the game is so much better and allows realistic gradual development of the action and with measured reaction instead of rapid thrusts.

Cheers!





Jeff Bardon
Marechal de l'Empire
(temporarily retired)

The game that Jeff refers to is Schleiz from Jena.

He torched my French with his Prussians. ZOC'd one unit after another.

The new rules limits the kills like that and makes the smaller actions more fun.

Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]

Gentlmen,

I think Jeff nails it with his comments:

Quote "You are absolutely correct. Any automatic feature could be manipulated. We push the engine pretty hard as is, or in the case of the ZOC, I guess it is now more pushed pretty hard. I often used the maneuver (block the two rear and attach from the flank, repeat as needed to destroy enemy formation) and had it done to me on several occasions,(just ask Bill about our bloody ZOC skirmish during testing). I can just imagine the tactics that could be devised to lure auto charges out from an enemy so as to surround and destroy them, or induce a formation in line to go square so that one's own line of infantry could come off better in the firefight.

As has been pointed out, the 10 minute turn with its lowered movemnt rate has put a much better flow back in the game. Combined with NME, the feel of the game is so much better and allows realistic gradual development of the action and with measured reaction instead of rapid thrusts.

Cheers!

Jeff Bardon
Marechal de l'Empire
(temporarily retired)"

I too feel the current embedded melee and continued ability to move units after the melee phase is the way to go for both best historical flow and for game play time.

<b>Please don't bring back the phased system!!</b>

As for the comments on tactics with square and elimination of isolated units, prudence and patience are true virtues.

Lt Col Mike Ellwood
VII Saxon Corps, ADR

I can tell you that noone wants the old phased system back.

What Gary pointed out is valid. However, I would like any alternate system to be an Option and not the default game. Or look at this this way ... have two ways of playing. Satisfy the guys that want to have the embedded melee system added as an option while giving us guys the current system.

Frankly I would like to see a magnificent 3d game much like what you had with Fields of Glory. Good engine of HPS coupled with fabulous artwork.

Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]

<font color="red">Frankly I would like to see a magnificent 3d game much like what you had with Fields of Glory. Good engine of HPS coupled with fabulous artwork.</font id="red">
Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)..

A big yes to that... [:D][:D][:D]



<font color="red">Maréchal</font id="red">
<font color="red">BEECHAM</font id="red"> Commandant 1ème Division de Cuirassiers,
1 Corps Res Cav,ADN.

Prince d` Istria et Comte d` Arles La Jeune Garde

"Toujours féroce,jamais étourdi"

<i>"I would like any alternate system to be an Option and not the default game. Or look at this this way ... have two ways of playing. Satisfy the guys that want to have the embedded melee system added as an option while giving us guys the current system."</i>


Bill,

I totally agree. I'd hate to see some kind of compulsory embedded melee system replace the current setup. So it would need to be optional.

On the other hand, if the full BG style multiphase system was properly carried over to the HPS engine, I'd play some games this way instead.


Lt.Col. Rich White
4th Cavalry Brigade
Cavalry Corps
Anglo-Allied Army

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Richard</i>
<br /><i>"I would like any alternate system to be an Option and not the default game. Or look at this this way ... have two ways of playing. Satisfy the guys that want to have the embedded melee system added as an option while giving us guys the current system."</i>


Bill,

I totally agree. I'd hate to see some kind of compulsory embedded melee system replace the current setup. So it would need to be optional.

On the other hand, if the full BG style multiphase system was properly carried over to the HPS engine, I'd play some games this way instead.


Lt.Col. Rich White
4th Cavalry Brigade
Cavalry Corps
Anglo-Allied Army
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Yes, I am sure that you are not alone in that feeling. Some guys would happily do six files per turn in order to put their guns in limber or unlimber formation and use the countercharge option.

Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]

I'd like to see the embedded melee added as an option, but I'd like it to be somewhat different than stated up front in this thread. Why would it be necessary to prevent units from using the balance of their move if they moved some prior to the melees? I would think that it would be quite possible to limit melees (other than skirmishers) so that they must be performed together without zeroing out movement of units that have used a partial move. With an addition to the toolbar that will advance through all possible melees so that a key assault wont be overlooked I think one could make the execution of the embedded melee much easier to use. I personally wont play without it (although I haven't played a Jena scenario yet so I'm not sure how that will change things).

On a separate subject, it looked to me like the cavalry may in some cases need to get close enough to the enemy in a previous move (to get in positon for a charge in the next turn) that they may get blasted a lot more than they should. It's almost like stopping mid charge to let everyone shoot at them, maneuver in front of them (or out from in front of them), etc. Has that been a side effect of the new movement rates observed by those who have played it?

Regards,

General Theron Lambert
Grande Duc de Montereau et Duc d'Angers
Cavalerie du
VI Corps
Armee du Rhin
Commandant Grenadiers a Pied "les Grognards"

If units are allowed to move after the melees are done, that's a perfect "exploitation" phase. Even if they can't melee in turn, they can at least pour through the gap and isolate units.

Feldmarschall Freiherr Gary McClellan
Generalissimus Imperial Austrian Army
Portner Grenadier Bn
Allied Coalition C-in-C