Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)

Cliff I could not agree more, in fact the more I study Napoleon's deployments the more I am amazed they were so good without a helicopter!
Salute!

Colonel Colin Knox,
Baron de l'Empire
2e Regiment Gardes d'Honneur (the regaled pheasants)
La Jeune Garde
CO. 1er Brigade, III Division Cavalerie Legere, III Corps Armee du Nord
http://www.aspire.co.nz/colinknoxnwc.htm

Monsieur , I also feel that that best way to play these games is just like we played table top that was Historical . Now let’s look at the quick and easy games you have one side set up in perfect positions and on the other side the same it’s hard for me to believe that the Emperor or the old General and the Duke could have set their Armee up so perfect. I believe that in a campaign games you get the true feel of command you most move to position. Table top you have limits on engagement range. The French move faster to the attack so that would mean that the Allies would be stop in lot of different positions due to the 12’’ 15mm game engagement range. Now in the cyber games no engagement range walk up to their face if you want too. Which is more historical cyber or broad game compared to Campaign game my vote goes to campaign game that’s Historic you are now the Duke or the Old one or the Emperor. Another point it was crazy to engage a Guard unit on Table top cyber not so! Artillery had different class cyber all is equal?

Col de Art 6/3 II Corps AN Marbot CS

Monsieur ,if I may continue let me say that at 3;30 am on the 15 of June advance elements of the Emperors Armee crossed the French frontier at Thy and at Leers and Cour- sur – Heure. The Armee was disposed in three principal columns; on the left, the Corps de Armee of Gen Reille and d’Erlon marching via Thuin and Marchiennes; in the center the Corps de Armee of Gen Vandamme and Gen Lobau with the Imperial Guard plus FM Grouchy‘s Cheval de’ Reserve marching by way of Ham-sur- Heure, Jamioulex and Marcinelles; and on the right, Gen de’ Armee Gerard’s Corps de Armee marching by way of Florennes and Gerpinnes. Now we have human error which slowed the whole Gran Armee down. If we were playing table top the Commander of the French Armee would have to give these orders out to the players the night before the game and then when the game begins this is how they would march, perfect no human error not Historic at all now cyber age comes and does the same but includes the fix unit which holes up the process Historic in every way but the main thing Human error and ego are not included in the game! Command control the 14th Infantry Div, was command by Gen de’ Div Comte de’ Bourmont who defected to the Allies holding up the IV Corps de Armee in table top you can put that in not so in cyber which they try to do by replacing the commander but the unit is now shaken by this an moral goes down this to me is a plus for table top. FM Ney now that’s another thing cyber thing they try to control this by having him come on so late. If I may go on merci!

Col de Art 6/3 II Corps AN Marbot CS

Hi Clifford
I agree again. I recently played Andy Moss in the historical version of the campaign but with hindsight and helicopter command it was pretty unbalanced and by Move 30 I had destroyed a large proportion of the Prussian army.

But at the end of the day it's a game not real war (thank goodness)
So whilst it is a simulation it's also about fun. That said next time I play Waterloo on the big map I would want the allied commander to have the 'no fixed version' though.

Salute!



General de Brigade Knox
Baron de l'Empire
2e Regiment Gardes d'Honneur (the regaled pheasants)
La Jeune Garde
CO. 1er Brigade, III Division Cavalerie Legere, III Corps Armee du Nord
http://www.aspire.co.nz/colinknoxnwc.htm

Mon ami if you played Andy then it most have been one of those short games were the French Armee is feed to ju like a sieve maybe its fun but I don’t think it’s historical. Don’t get me wrong every one like winning but merci, at what cost Glory! Try him like I’m in a 533 turn Russian are coming it’s a different story if the game was a 533 or six day or Russian are coming pardon ma. Would like to give ma insight on Jena if I may! Just and old man convalescing from cancer.

Col de Art 6/3 II Corps AN Marbot CS

Hi Cliff
It was Waterloo historical and I don't play to win only I play because I love the reenactment of the period and trying to grasp and use Napoleons methods.

Andy is a fine officer I agree (and a good bloke). I was really actually referring to the fact the historical scenario tends to favour the French so we are not disagreeing on that issue.

I also agree he would be a much a harder opponent in the Russians are coming from Jena.

Salute!

General de Brigade Knox
Baron de l'Empire
2e Regiment Gardes d'Honneur (the regaled pheasants)
La Jeune Garde
CO. 1er Brigade, III Division Cavalerie Legere, III Corps Armee du Nord
http://www.aspire.co.nz/colinknoxnwc.htm

<font color="blue">Mon ami Moi General,<font color="blue"></font id="blue"> if the Hp favors the French I believe that it should since the Allies as I stated were not moving in concert with one another. Col Grant was the Duke Chief spy and he didn’t give the approval to move from the English defend of the port of Antwerp. It’s mighty hard to beat a concentrate enemy Armee as large as the French was in 1815, let us also look at the fact that this was not the rashly put together force of 1813 and the road weary force of 1812. But a Crack line Armee with the veterans of twenty years or more in the Guard the finest Cheval that he has had since 1805. Now the old Baltimore game called Talonsoft doesn’t favor this because it set up different from HP which to me is better I would play both to see the different. Talonsoft would have a more compact Allied Armee able to get to Quatte Bras! Now compare the moral of the troops in games to Scotts moral French would be higher then both of the Allied Armee. The Guard 12+ 3 =15 vs the Allies 8 . </font id="blue">[:D]

Col de Art 6/3 II Corps AN Marbot CS

Bon jur Monsieur Mark, but the allies can destroy all the bridges in the Hp game and beat the French easy in turn by the way that they come on the left! The only way that the French can win to me that is in the Big game is by ganging up and full court press in the Talonsoft game also.

Col de Art 6/3 II Corps AN Marbot CS

"Uh? wot wot?" The generaal pulls his face out of his dinner. "I hear somebody talking about my exploits."
Wipes yesterday's vomit off the table and opens another bottle of port.
"Pull up a chair and I'll bore yer all with stories of excess on and off the battlefield."
The bird's eye view is indeed one of the limiting factors of the engine. That and the instant transmission of orders. However it's a game and we'll have to accept that's the way it is. It doesn't favour either side. [Hic]. Ligny against Mr Knox was not my finest hour. I was damnably mauled. [Gets maudlin]Similarly in the full campaign. He's the HPS equivalent of that damned Barrett. Jena has a slower pace although I still have issues with the above comments. "Rosie I need the contraption - now!- ohhhh wrong tavern".
Clifton - there was no full Waterloo campaign by Talonsoft, just a version by nirproject. In the HPS version the French really have to blitz the allies in order to win. Shock and awe tactics. I've played both sides and I'd say both sides have their own problems. And don't write in blue, it kills me eyes!
As for the original question, I don't think there is a difinitive answer. Sketch maps and memories are vague and contradictory. The Ligny Brook posed no barrier to infantry but impassable to guns and horses, and that cannot be modelled into the engine. The Talonsoft game also had units broken up and scattered about making routing even more likely for the hapless Prussians. The HPS version has made some effort to remedy that - more balanced gameplay but at the expense of a little historical accuracy possibly. The big problem really is that we can all study the dispositions of both sides before we start off, reinforcement schedules etc, plus having the benefit of hindsight, something which the original protagonists did not have the benefit of.
"Damn their eyes, where have they all gone?"

Generaal
2de Brigade
2de Nederlandsche Div
I Corps
Anglo Allied Army

Off on a tangent, but Andy touches on something that I find extremely frustrating.

As a new member to the club, there is no scenario I can play that my opponent has not done before. If he hasn't done it before enough to know the location and disposition of my forces better than I, then all he has to do is load it up and study the starting and arrival times/locations for that scenario.

My single greatest wish for the game engine is the development of a 'random meeting engagement' scenario where each side is given a random entry hex (or hexes!)...all you know at the start is that the enemy is 'over that way somewhere'.

Sorry to get off topic! [:I]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by andy Moss</i>
[brThe big problem really is that we can all study the dispositions of both sides before we start off, reinforcement schedules etc, plus having the benefit of hindsight, something which the original protagonists did not have the benefit of.
"Damn their eyes, where have they all gone?"

Generaal
2de Brigade
2de Nederlandsche Div
I Corps
Anglo Allied Army
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Lt Robert Roda

L'Armee du Rhin
V Polish Corps
16th Polish Division
1st Brigade
15th Polish Line Regiment
"800 Poles would equal 8000 enemy soldiers."
- Napoleon Bonaparte

Robert.

Good pint. But i will say two things. I have all the games. and have played many of them.. and i can say there are 100s of scn i have still not played. ..

I think you get some scn like the Historical ones. were guys know were the enemy will turn up . .

The best thing i would say is play a Campaign. .. With Jena there is so many ways the game can turn. .
Also Eck is a good Campaign. i have played that 4 times and each time it was not the same.
So both sides will find it fun.

<font color="red">Maréchal</font id="red">
<font color="red">BEECHAM</font id="red">
La Commandeur, II Corps
ADN

Prince d` Istria et Comte d` Arles La Jeune Garde

"Toujours féroce,jamais étourdi"

Indeed I agree too. That's why I avoid the historical single battles nowadays unless with an opponent I'm comfortable with. The big single campaign maps are the best but even the campaign tree adds a lot of unpredictability into games. You would need to play a number of times to be familiar with all combinations. Or sit and study them before hand and I don't know anyone with that kind of mindset.

Generaal
2de Brigade
2de Nederlandsche Div
I Corps
Anglo Allied Army

Well said Andrew. [;)]

<font color="red">Maréchal</font id="red">
<font color="red">BEECHAM</font id="red">
La Commandeur, II Corps
ADN

Prince d` Istria et Comte d` Arles La Jeune Garde

"Toujours féroce,jamais étourdi"

Hi Gents
Andy, Dean, Robert allow me to buy you a drink! But Andy you look like you have had a tough night so please don't soil my beautiful Gardes d'Honneur uniform, I have just had it freshly perfumed by my favourite Paris perfumery. [:D]

One historical battle that does allow a lot of variation is the Twin Battle of Jena Auerstedt. I have played it three times and each one has turned out different. Although I will admit mainly in the Auerstedt area of operations.

Salute



General de Brigade Knox
Baron de l'Empire
2e Regiment Gardes d'Honneur (the regaled pheasants)
La Jeune Garde
CO. 1er Brigade, III Division Cavalerie Legere, III Corps Armee du Nord
http://www.aspire.co.nz/colinknoxnwc.htm

Mon Ami , Sorry for the blue but I did it to prove a point only a person with the keen insight like you would read it and that’s the Jena game there are thing in the woods that will hurt you .Guerilla warfare was unheard of in the old PTW NIR games an in some of these short 20 – 60 games . Now we have the long games and the terrain to march though perfect for Napoléon in Spain. It will tack a good General to go 533 turns and not for a lazy finger as well mon ami its nice to be sober I should have started years ago maybe I would not be in the shape I’m in setting on the beach with a dipper on anyway tu ju mon ami. bon jur from the Gulf de Mexico and New France (South)

Col de Art 6/3 II Corps AN Marbot CS