Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)

I'd like to talk about the optional fire and melee rules. I think you want to play with them on if you are interested in game where the tactical results are more historical.

Of course my statement assumes that "on the average" the game engine provides an accurate model for fire and melee casualties. By having the rules activated you reduce the variablilty about the average. If you leave them off, "dice rolling" becomes a greater factor in the result. My recollection is that leaving the optional rules off increase the likely range of results at close range from something like +/- 20% to +/- 50%. Not a huge factor, but in a game were other factors have a 10% impact, leaving a 30% impact to dice rolling seems inconsistent.

This higher variablity would also combine to impact the results you would see from column pass through fire.

Of course over the long term you will still see the same "average results", but you will probably have a number of "memorable" situations when the casualties were very much higher or very much lower then would be expected.


Major General Sir Bob Breen KT

1st (The King's) Dragoon Guards
Commanding 71st Highlanders
Past Commandant, RMA

Gents just wanted to add a comment on NME.
I realise for some this rule is unrealistic for me I like how it allows cavalry to conduct penertration attacks without the threat of an immediate elimination.

If you look at the period there are many examples of cavalry operating in this manner, without NME they virtually can not conduct a deep charge unless it is in huge numbers. I will only play with it on and would not like to see it changed.

I have played it with Embedded melee and cannot say that I think it makes defense to strong as Doug feels as long as the Isolation rules are on.

Just my opinion, regards to all.



General de Brigade Knox
Baron de l'Empire
2e Regiment Gardes d'Honneur (the regaled pheasants)
La Jeune Garde
CO. 1er Brigade, III Division Cavalerie Legere, III Corps Armee du Nord
http://www.aspire.co.nz/colinknoxnwc.htm

Regarding cavalry penetration charges, I have always thought it would be cool if cavalry could somehow withdraw after a charge. Maybe something would work like giving units that charge 5 hexes to move after they conduct their last melee as long as they return along the path of their charge. The problem has always been cavalry getting surrounded after they charge and then eliminated by a zoc kill the next turn. Still with NME they avoid this "penalty" for making an unsupported charge. Even if the stack gets surrounded, if it is broken down into squadrons there will usually be an unrouted unit in the hex to keep the hex. In a Waterloo game recently a stack of British cavalry (6 squadrons) with a leader charged into my I Corps and it took 4 turns of shooting and cavalry attacks to finally eliminate the stack.

Marechal Jonathan Thayer
Commandante Moyenne Garde
Duc de Saalfeld et Prince de Friedland
1/10/III
Armee du Nord




jonathanthayer@bellsouth.net

I see many folks prefer Partial Retreats off.

Can anyone tell me why you would prefer this option disabled?

Lt Robert Roda

L'Armee du Rhin
V Polish Corps
16th Polish Division
1st Brigade
15th Polish Line Regiment
"800 Poles would equal 8000 enemy soldiers."
- Napoleon Bonaparte

Partial Retreats doesnt really work like you think it does. I hardly ever see a unit retreat into an adjacent hex. Only under very rare circumstances.

For those of us the use NME you have to have Partial Retreats OFF anyway.

Play around with the game a bit with the rule ON to see why we dont use it.

Colonel Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]

I don't see anything in the game's documentation to indicate that Partial Retreats have to be disabled to use NME. Why is this?



<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bill Peters</i>
<br />Partial Retreats doesnt really work like you think it does. I hardly ever see a unit retreat into an adjacent hex. Only under very rare circumstances.

For those of us the use NME you have to have Partial Retreats OFF anyway.

Play around with the game a bit with the rule ON to see why we dont use it.

Colonel Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]


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Lt Robert Roda

L'Armee du Rhin
V Polish Corps
16th Polish Division
1st Brigade
15th Polish Line Regiment
"800 Poles would equal 8000 enemy soldiers."
- Napoleon Bonaparte

Hi Robert ;

The NME came out when Jena did. .. And I am not to sure if the Rules file got up dated . But that could be why you dont see anything about it.

I will have a look myself ..

<font color="red">Maréchal</font id="red">
<font color="red">BEECHAM</font id="red">
La Commandeur, II Corps
ADN

Prince d` Istria et Comte d` Arles La Jeune Garde

"Toujours féroce,jamais étourdi"

The documentation I believe was updated with the latest update to Eckmuhl.

Once I get the Jena update out to John by the end of the week (along with Wagram) then that will be taken care of.

Colonel Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]

Sorry to beat the dead horse, I'm just not understanding something (or it's not working as intended?).

With NME on, and Partial Retreats off, I've seen units completely annihilated when they're forced to retreat to a hex that can't support them. This seems contradictory to what NME is supposed to do, yes?

This made me believe Partial Retreats was the way to go, but now in this thread I read otherwise. Instead of an explanation why, I'm told to play with the game some.

Seems it would be relatively trivial for someone with an understanding to explain...much less time spent to communicate something that's already been learned instead of me having to redo work someone else has already done [B)]



Lt Robert Roda

L'Armee du Rhin
V Polish Corps
16th Polish Division
1st Brigade
15th Polish Line Regiment
"800 Poles would equal 8000 enemy soldiers."
- Napoleon Bonaparte

Its a pretty involved explanation of which has to do with rear retreat hexes. That said I simply dont have the time to type it all out.

And besides the best way to learn this game is to play it out for yourself.

I have yet to see units that were ZOC'd with NME ON get eliminated in the same turn unless they were understrength. Never have I seen full battalians eliminated in the first melee.

Colonel Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]

They weren't ZOC'd, they had a retreat hex with friendly units. With partial retreats ON (it was OFF), the unit would have been able to retreat, but with some 'losses to stragglers'. Since Partial Retreats were off, the unit was eliminated outright.

Thanks for the advice to "learn to play the game." Perhaps if the game were properly documented I wouldn't have to ask for help in understanding it. I'm sorry if I think it's unreasonable that an end-user has to conduct countless experiments with the game-engine to gain an understanding of how it works.

Can someone with 2 minutes to spare in their busy lives please explain to me why Partial Retreats are required to be off to make NME work?

Thanks!

(PS Sorry to hijak the thread!)


<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bill Peters</i>
<br />Its a pretty involved explanation of which has to do with rear retreat hexes. That said I simply dont have the time to type it all out.

And besides the best way to learn this game is to play it out for yourself.

I have yet to see units that were ZOC'd with NME ON get eliminated in the same turn unless they were understrength. Never have I seen full battalians eliminated in the first melee.

Colonel Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]


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Lt Robert Roda

L'Armee du Rhin
V Polish Corps
16th Polish Division
1st Brigade
15th Polish Line Regiment
"800 Poles would equal 8000 enemy soldiers."
- Napoleon Bonaparte

Just a guess, but I assume that there is a conflict between the fact that anything that exceeds stacking strength can't retreat into a hex and is eliminated during partial retreats, whereas under NME units that can't retreat just hold their position. So with partial retreat on what is supposed to happen? Part retreats and the rest stays? No, that is not in keeping with partial retreat where the remnant is eliminated. All of it stays put? Well, that isn't consistent with partial retreats.

So in summary they conflict in how they deal with a unit that has to retreat into a unit where the retreat would cause overstacking -- you can't observe one without violating the other.

Marechal Theron Lambert
Grande Duc de Montereau et Duc d'Angers
Cavalerie du VI Corps
Armee du Rhin
Commandant Grenadiers a Pied "les Grognards"