Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)

In the next update soon out from HPS for Campaign Jena there will be quite a few additions.

Here is the list:

Ability of Line formation units that are Disordered to recover in any terrain.

Ability to Fix units in the Scenario Editor during the game. Similar to the Panzer Campaigns series. Can be used for multiple day scenarios to ensure that armies dont march into the long hours of the morning. Or to show a command breakdown present in an army (note: I have not changed any of my scenarios to use this yet)

Dismounted Dragoons - your vote here is needed: should I give all dragoon types the ability to dismount?

1. Yes.
2. No.
3. Only in those cases where it was historically used.

The Dismounted Dragoons that were attached to the Imperial Guard were a result of a lack of horses.

Note: All dismounted dragoon types (D in the OB codes) will be considered Heavy Cavalry so let that be part of your consideration - if you think for instance that by giving the French this ability it will turn there dragoon types into something they werent then consider this when you vote)

Other changes:

I added in 15 minute versions for the standalone scenarios in the game.

Corrections were made to the large map that comes with the game. Stuff like stream hexsides that were missing, roads that didnt connect or were of the wrong type and Jena now will have more roads in the town to facilitate movement.

Change so that retreating units cannot overrun Skirmishers in Chateau hexes.

Please let me know if you advocate giving all of the dragoons in all OBs the ability to dismount of your views on where we restrict it. The less House Rules the better on this.

I also increased the French morale for the infantry (non-engineers). There were several solo scenarios added for the majority of our customers that play that mode.
Corrections were made to victory levels in certain scenarios.

Colonel Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]

I'll vote Yes.

My initial feeling was No, worrying we'd just turn them into mounted infanty. But then I decided if my opponent did this, I'd be happy. [8D] They'd be expensive infantry, and I'm presuming they won't have a great deal of firepower. A couple of basic questions just to ask the obvious - How would they be handled in melee? If multiple cavalry melee was On, would the game still identify them as cavalry when dismounted? How much movement would they have dismounted? Horse handlers?

And as for limiting their use to historical battlefields, I could live with this but would rather leave them with the <i>ability</i> in all cases they had the training to warrant it. It's up to us to use them or not in this role (part of the "what if" nature of the experience).

Chef d'Escadron Sean Turner
1er Dragons
2ème Division de Dragons
Ier Corps de Réserve de Cavalerie
l'Armee du Nord

Here are some facts on the Dismounted Dragoon type I should have included Sean:

You use the Change Formation button to dismount or mount them.

Can only form Line. Cannot go into Column or Square or detach skirmishers. Pretty much you stick them in a town or behind a hedge to HOLD something. When they were dismounted to advance on the enemy they really didnt do well.

Q type (Carbine) values are 1 hex range and its value is 4 (vs. 6 for muskets at that range).

Can still detach 1/2 of its size as a platoon.

Cannot act like cavalry does: cannot charge, continue in melee or gain the charge bonus.

Does NOT have an amount of men detailed as horse holders. Figure that the cavalry in this series gets hit hard enough as it is by fire. We didnt push this with John. Felt that getting the rule as is was fine enough.

I had thought of pursuing a No Bayonets rule but after how I saw it modelled with the American Cav in the Mex-Am War game I didnt want to go there. I dont think that John could give them the ability to melee normally while mounted but with No Bayonets when dismounted. I figure that the sword is their weapon anyway I guess.

And yes, when fired on they are an infantry type - not cavalry.

Note: when you right click on the Info Window area to see their total melee amount it DOES show the amount they would have IF they could charge. John wont be changing that. You will just have to manually count them up OR divide the amount by the Charge Factor as found in the PDT file (I use x5). And if you mix other infantry in Line with them you will probably have to use the Manual count approach.

Colonel Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]

I'd say yes.

There more freedom the better. And I'm sure it would be a very rare occurence on the field. With most of the batallions on the field numbering 700+ or even 900+ men 150 man strong dismounted dragoons that are bound to stay in line, that have decreased fire ability would be an easy prey. I believe players can use this option only in extreme cases and it, I agree with Sean, will be very costy. Several more questions:
-if such a unit becomes Disordered will it be able to mount?
-will one dismounted dragoon count as one mounted or as one infantryman in terms of VPs calculations.
-Would it be possible to combine platoons of dismounted dragoons in this state. And if so how will it be made - with Skirmrisher/Squadron button or with Extended/Shortened button?
-Will they be able to fire while mounted?
-Will mounted cavalry have all the cavalry abilities? First of all will it be allowed to charge?
-Would it be possible to create horse pioneers units? Such formations existed in russian army since 1819. Just curious about that.
-More generally can any unit have several atributes. For example Militia and Light or Guard and Light or Militia and Pioneers etc. Can status Has boats be assigned to cavalry? And to D-type in particular, and if so , how can I cross the river with such a unit?


<center></center>
<center><b>Eyo Imperatorskogo Velichestva Leib-Kirassirskogo polku
General-Mayor Anton Valeryevich Kosyanenko
Commander of the Second Army of the West </b></center>

Bon jur; Mon General
Ma vote is to keep the Dragoons on horse back but I can see that at night we most have a rule can’t have men and animals moving all night maybe fig for night movement could be added. As for the Prussian art I personally would lower their moral and their fire percent for they would be considered class III or II in table top. The most important thing I see is the night like some civil war games after midnight they go to sleep that is the Inf till 4am. I believe the moral for some of the French Corps are to low considering that a large percent were at Austerlitz all but I Corps I div. The Guard need to be A+ the finest inf in world an any untrained unit can effect them merci for your consideration.


Col de Art 6/3 II Corps AN Marbot CS

Oui; a very important thing firing from the saddle could be include to the dragoons lower their fire percent an they would be mounted inf which they were! Also you have named units which act like they never were named units!

Col de Art 6/3 II Corps AN Marbot CS

I am interested to see how the VP calculations go. I am against lowering or increasing any morale for units. The game is so lop sided to begin with....any increased favor for the French I feel would make it not worth the time of playing...sure consider historical aspects that is fine, but the game still should be playable for all and not just a one sided affair.

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General der Infanterie Scott Prinz "Vorwärts" Ludwig von Allenstein-Dennewitz
(Old Windy) (Windbagfrankfurter) (The Mad Prussian) (Herr Windbagenführer)
Generalquartiermeister der Preußischen Armee
Kommandeur Garde-Grenadier-Korps
Königlich Preußische Armee am Niederrhein
Webmaster & Club Cabinet - Public Relations Officer

Vorwärts Meine Kinder, Vorwärts!!

[url="http://www.prussianarmy.com/"]Königliche Preußische Armee[/url]

[url="http://www.networkforgood.org"]Network for Good[/url]

[url="http://napoleonicwargaming.com"]Napoleonic Wargaming - INWC[/url]</center>

I like the Idea of a dismounting for dragoons Bill. Regarding morale changes to the French infantry I am not sure this is a good idea (although accurate) as this will unbalance the game a bit will it not?

Did I hear somewhere you are changing the stacking rules if you are my vote is - PLEASE DONT CHANGE THEM [:D]

PS: Anton how about that move? [:D]

Salute!

General de Brigade Knox
Baron de l'Empire
2e Regiment Gardes d'Honneur (the regaled pheasants)
La Jeune Garde
CO. 1er Brigade, III Division Cavalerie Legere, III Corps Armee du Nord
http://www.aspire.co.nz/colinknoxnwc.htm

Monsieur, I can’t understand why someone one would say that the up grade of the French moral would make the games unplayable, the French did win and to keep it real the Guard were almost untouchable. There is overwhelming proof on name units to balance this would be un- historical. If the Prussian are to win in this its to stay as they are and the French to reflect the true character of the times that is only my opinion not written in stone Monsieur. They can be overcome by good game man ship so why worried if the game speaks true to the time.

Col de Art 6/3 II Corps AN Marbot CS

I vote yes to dismount dragoons

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</center>
<center>
[img]</center>
<center>Monsieur le Marechal Baron John Corbin
Commanding L'Armee du Rhin
Grande Duc de Piave et Comte de Beauvais
Commanding the Division de Cavalerie de la Moyenne Garde
NWC President</center>

There is a point where you have to choose how historical you go and how the playability of the game is. If a designer goes too much into things they chance the risk of people not buying the game because one side is too dominant over another.

People enjoy the historical aspect, sure I do, but people want to enjoy playing the game too.

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General der Infanterie Scott Prinz "Vorwärts" Ludwig von Allenstein-Dennewitz
(Old Windy) (Windbagfrankfurter) (The Mad Prussian) (Herr Windbagenführer)
Generalquartiermeister der Preußischen Armee
Kommandeur Garde-Grenadier-Korps
Königlich Preußische Armee am Niederrhein
Webmaster & Club Cabinet - Public Relations Officer

Vorwärts Meine Kinder, Vorwärts!!

[url="http://www.prussianarmy.com/"]Königliche Preußische Armee[/url]

[url="http://www.networkforgood.org"]Network for Good[/url]

[url="http://napoleonicwargaming.com"]Napoleonic Wargaming - INWC[/url]</center>

Yes,I am an Anglo-Allied officer, but in my humble opinion, I think you will seriously unbalance the Jena game (and others) if you increase the French morale. Already, the French enjoy the benefit of higher quality and morale ratings and leadership factors as well.

In my experience, the French already have the advantage in almost every game and scenario. In Eckmuhl, for instance, it is nearly impossible to get French units to rout -- even after they are red fatigued and reduced to fewer than a tenth of their number. I really like the Eckmuhl game by the way but the Allied player must take this invincible willpower of the French army into consideration.

Why are you increasing the French morale? Have the French players been complaining about the Prussian Cavalry? Have they finally met a force equal to their own?

Perhaps you should switch sides for a while to understand why the French don't need higher morale.

SUGGESTION -- There should be a rule to prevent a red fatigued unit with less than 50% strength to participate in melees.

SUGGESTION -- There should be a penalty rule wherein any unit that is reduced in strength to 15% will rout at the drop of a hat and stay that way 95% of the time.

Too many times I have seen little tiny beat up units reentering combat and exerting zones of control. This is not historical or realistic.

FM Sir 'Muddy' Jones, KG
2nd Life Guards, Household Cavalry

Monsieur’s, we are talking about one game here not all of them Jena was the topic 1809 is not. My only view is that these were the French glory years and should be play as such. 1809 the Armee's were becoming equal but not in 05 and 06. Now if we were in Spain it would be different story I would not cry if the French Armee was poor and did poorly I would try to over come the Anglish much like General Suchet did. This is called the Napoleonic wars for a reason not the Allied wars or some other famous allied Generals name. History is the witness here and change is only stop by those who benefit from what is. This is my humble ideas not the ideas of the General and designer.

Col de Art 6/3 II Corps AN Marbot CS

Guys - I have played the game from both sides. I see alot of French routs for an army that was at the top of its form.

With the reduced movement the French suffer fire longer now than in Eckmuhl thus you cant compare the two. And yes, the cavalry advantage of the Prussians is very good.

Stacking - it was just far too of an advantage to the Prussian in this dept. For instance in EC you do have some Austrian bns. that are huge and cannot easily stack with units of their own brigades but after talking over the stacking with Rich H. we both agree that 1800 is the new standard. Its a compromise between 1600 and 2000 and already in the playtest games I have been doing with it there is an improvement. But note: EC/WC will not be changed due to cavalry regiments in the scenarios that are over 1000 men. I dont want to try and find all of them and change the OB to have half-regiments. Just too much hunting and I leave myself open to mistakes after the update is out there.

Again, we can see if the added French morale handicaps the game that much but in our current title the French morale was too low and units were routing alot, even with Rout Limiting ON.

I am leaving cavalry charge multiplier alone. Rich prefers something like 3-4. I would like to leave the Prussian cavalry as deadly as possible.

Note Muddy: I am all for NOT making ALL of the French dragoons dismountable for the simple reason that it was RARELY done AND it will give them HEAVY status. Its pretty much a tradeoff over the morale raise I gave the French. I dont think its right to give ALL of the cavalry dismount status at this point.

The gamers can get in there and adjust OUR OB files (unlike another series we have) and put their own scenarios together.

Sorry guys but its just hard to give everyone the shake they think they deserve.

So for now try it out. If we see a drastic increase in Prussian losses will consider doing something else.

As to your suggestions Muddy - I doubt that John will go for them but hey, send Rich an email if you like. We have already pretty much sent in what we would like to see for now but perhaps he will consider your ideas. I for one do not agree with the 15% idea you have simply because we hear of units losing alot of men and still hanging in there. What you are saying is that a large Dutch-Belgian unit of 900 men should have to lose more men than an OG battalian in order to qualify for your second suggestion. I disagree.

Anyway, enjoy guys. If the morale thing stinks then we will give it some rethinking. 1806 is not the most popular campaign for the Allies but there are plenty of situations in the box that favor the Allies, Auersteadt being one of them!

In other words history cannot always be balanced no matter how you slice it. An army I command to disgrace in Paco's hands turns out to be a champion and the same goes for some of your Allied commanders. In the end alot of it has to do with who is handling the forces.

Colonel Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]

Hi Bill
First thing I want to say is I have huge respect for the knowledge of the HPS team and I love your work.

However Sir Muddy and I recently tested the Jena Auerstedt battle a fair bit in our big encounter. We are both capable players I am undefeated and Muddy's reputation is renowned. Not into trumpet blowing here but I think if you change the French infantry morale and make it better you unbalance the game. So I pretty much agree with Sir Muddy on all of the things he has said. Bit of a winge though sir Muddy [:D][:D][:D][:p]

These things said its just my opinion and I recognise you must balance many views.

Best regards
Colin

General de Brigade Knox
Baron de l'Empire
2e Regiment Gardes d'Honneur (the regaled pheasants)
La Jeune Garde
CO. 1er Brigade, III Division Cavalerie Legere, III Corps Armee du Nord
http://www.aspire.co.nz/colinknoxnwc.htm