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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:59 am 
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Location: Moscow, Russia
1. Everyone will be free to download the game file from the site. oob is being brushed up and as soon as it's ready we will place the WHOLE package. We are not going to send them. Everyone is supposed to be handy enough to manage download.

2. Constructive criticism is welcome. We will listen to any opinion. Even if it comes from Bill Peters :wink: We feel free to chose any solution for a problem mentioned - from unconditionally accepting it to complete ignore. The only reason would be whether it improves IN OUR OPINION Historicity and Realism or not.

3. Given that map is discrete in hexe and time is discrete in turns we have to choose one of these option: either we operate with historical units and unhistorical tactical densities or we operate with historical densities but unhistorical units. In our settings units belinging to the same regiment are all the same. Hence it does not affect in any way what particular 8 companies occupy a hex. They act the same whether they belong to the same batallion or not. As long as this is true "a" and "b" subbatallions are simple an eye candy. We knew that we sacrifice it in order to have histirically accurate densities. This point is crucial for our reasoning. So "take it or leave it"!

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General-Fieldmareshal Count Anton Kosyanenko
Commanding Astrakhan grenadiers regiment
2nd Grenadiers Division, Russian Contingent


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:27 pm 
As for a & b units to represent bns, there are historical precedents that can support this usage.

The English did have a history of breaking larger bns into wings for tactical movements in the French and Indian War and American War of Independence. Also in that latter war, the Americans under von Steuben's instructions had a file count per bn. So in a brigade if bns were too small they would be combined to form one "tactical" unit, and if bns were large enough it would be broken into two "tactical" units. This produced equal sized "tactical" units that enabled bde commanders to better utilize their brigade's combat capabilities, and helped div and bde commanders judge how much room bdes would need to operate correctly.

I could see the Brits still adhereing to the wings idea during the Nap Wars. I'm not sure, other than Austria, if the contenital armies did anything similar.

In reference to Austria, since the OOB file is so flexible, it would be possible to use the lowest level of commander for the Bn CO with a command radius of one hex, this would keep the bn together nicely. If, one did this, they could skip the Regimental CO and just go to the Bde level CO as the next level up, as the bde formation would be more important than the regimental commander's level. An argument could be made to go this route anyway, especially since many French rgts later in the war were bdes in and of themselves.

The point is the OOB file is so flexible that it can be modified to the needs of the scenario. It doesn't have to be a static concept, just as in real war.

al


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:55 pm 
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Since the idea of playing test games is on the table, I was wondering how the success of your changes would be measured?

I spent many years testing applications and always had a a concrete list of objectives/criteria that had to be met before I could say the test was sucessfull.

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La Grande Armée


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:38 pm 
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John Corbin wrote:
Since the idea of playing test games is on the table, I was wondering how the success of your changes would be measured?

I spent many years testing applications and always had a a concrete list of objectives/criteria that had to be met before I could say the test was sucessfull.

It’s a good question. The main criteria were:

1. More historical behaviour on a tactical level: less melee > more skirmishing, more artillery and musket firing and more positioning in depth.
We certainly achieved this with fewer melees and a lot more skirmishing, musket and artillery firing and more historical deployments.

2. Casualties and intensity
Both casualties and intensity were reduced massively but still there is a room for improvement. Just to give you an idea - the demo scenario involves 35K French assaulting 29K Austrians along the 3 km front. There are 30 turns (5 hours). In terms of size this battle is comparable to Marengo where the French held for 5 hours before starting to retreat. In our tests, the Austrians mostly had to abandon their positions after 3.5 to 4 hours (20-25 turns) of fighting and each time the casualties from both sides were close to 20-22%.

This is still too bloody and too fast but this is a big step from what you would have seen in the original game but there is still room for improvement. The problem is that it’s not just the game mechanics which effects players behaviour but also the lack of strategic perspective. In the demo the French player does not care how many losses he suffers as long as he pushes the Austrians away > in reality the general in charge would be more prudent with regards to his troop’s losses. So adding a strategic component should slow down the pace of engagements further. How do you do this? This is a different question which hopefully Bill is working on through “Napoleonic Campaign Site”.

3. More manoeuvring on the battlefield.
Manoeuvring on the battlefield is a very important Napoleonic concept as the effect did often come not entirely from the destructive power, real and effective as it may be. It came, above all, from its presumed, threatening power which may force the enemy to abandon the position or to redeploy to a vulnerable formation (square). The massive reduction of senior leaders’ command radius is supposed to penalise armies operating along the whole front.

The manoeuvring on the battlefield concept was not really tested in the demo scenario as there are 35K French operating on only 3 km front. The scenario only assumes a frontal assult. The French CinC (Napoleon) can easily cover all three Corps Commanders (Ney, Lannes and Murat). The idea of demo scenario is only to demonstrate the basic changes like troops density, melee, formations etc. and the demo is not really designed to demonstrate the changes on a grand-tactical level.

But once you get to try the larger battles like Austerlitz, Borodino, Waterloo – that’s where players will have to slow down as senior leaders will not be able to pass thier bonus to every division [ it will also decrease casualty levels and the intensity] and that’s where it should be a completely different experience.

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Leib-Guard Preobrazhensky Regiment (Grenadier Drum)
1st Brigade
Guard Infantry Division
5th Guard Corps


(I don't play with with ZOC kills and Rout limiting ON)


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 3:48 am 
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John,

What we hope to acheve.

Primary target:
-Ensure that effects of the settings on the course and outcome of the game are invariant across players. It's not yet obvious.

Secondary targets:
-Formalize VPs assignment for key locations and units casualties. So far we acted as if the attacker is desperate to occupy the groung whatever the cost is. And at tactical level units acted to produce most harm to the enemy sometimes dirregarding gain-loss considerations. Since the player is not expected to have all the background we have they need to be encouraged to act in a similar way. VPs is one of the means for that.

-Get a set of typical battle episodes - what melees occur and what do not, when users prefer to fire ad at what targets. It would allow us to create better tests.

-Let the players get acquainted with the engine. We hoped to play the big MP scenario with as much realism as possible. participants should technically prepared for that.

-And of course to brush up the document. We are working on it for over 5 month. It has been corrected on the average several times a day. No wonder sometimes it contradicts itself. Simply because in one place we have the uptodate concept and in the other one that was used to 5 month ago. After all there are only 4 of us and we have to do everything. And, well, Rashen Inglish should also be exterminated :wink:

So it's rather a "try to feel" how it works rather than a formal test :oops:

Al,

I recall in Eylau campaign at several occasions French half batallions acted independently. For example at Eylau itself the initial Prussian counterattack was aimed against four coys of 108th Ligne occupying a village. Writing by memory so numbers and names may be incorrect.

Speaking of Russians they constantly used odd formations with even detached coys from different regiments mixed together. In large battles it was not so well spread. But when it came to small warfare as in Finland in 1808-09 detachments of 3-5-7 coys, belonging to several regiments, were constantly sent to outflank enemy positions.

We have regimental commanders with command range of 1. It literally forces players to put their regiments into tight formations. On the other hand, low morale forces them to leave gaps between stacks of units. As a result units tend to be placed in regimental "clusters" which looks quite historical. Of course when big melee happens all this beauty is broken and to restore order you need first to rearrange the units properly and next to hope regimental leaders pass their tests. Quite historical as well.

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Leib-Guard Cuirassiers Regiment's
General-Fieldmareshal Count Anton Kosyanenko
Commanding Astrakhan grenadiers regiment
2nd Grenadiers Division, Russian Contingent


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:47 am 
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Gentlemen,

scenario is now available for download:
http://www.nwc.albom55.ru/hrp/

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Siberian Gr. Reg. / Guard: Preobragensky LG Reg.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:53 pm 
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I have downloaded the file but it is asking for a pbem encryption key can you guys give me both passwords please I want to review it.

Thanks
Colin

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Prince d'Austerlitz et Comte d'Argentan
Ordre national de la Légion d'honneur

"What is history but a fable agreed upon"


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:03 pm 
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Colin,
I am really surprised - not sure why its asking for a pbem encryption key.
It’s just supposed to be Start NEW > NORMAL > scenario, rather than Start OLD > Play-by-E-Mail.

Is there anyone else having this problem?

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General-Leytenant Alexey Tartyshev
Leib-Guard Preobrazhensky Regiment (Grenadier Drum)
1st Brigade
Guard Infantry Division
5th Guard Corps


(I don't play with with ZOC kills and Rout limiting ON)


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:14 pm 
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One wayto see how your works pans ut is to have your tsters pl;ay 2 games at teh same time.

1 game use the current scenario, pdt and oob files

1 game uses your changed stuff.

The game should be played at the same time and have the players mirror their moves etc in both games.

This way it might show what has improved or not

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GrandeDuc de Piave et Comte de Beauvais
Camp de Vétéran
La Grande Armée


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:19 pm 
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Yes, we did something similar to this :
We always had two games running at the same time.

John,
Can you please see if you can open the scenario?

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General-Leytenant Alexey Tartyshev
Leib-Guard Preobrazhensky Regiment (Grenadier Drum)
1st Brigade
Guard Infantry Division
5th Guard Corps


(I don't play with with ZOC kills and Rout limiting ON)


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:27 pm 
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John,
Can you please see if you can open the scenario?[/quote]

Opens for me with no prompting for a password

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:37 pm 
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Sorry gents I am on holiday and my brain is not working properly haha!
I unzipped the wrong file

Not being that tech savvy on the engine can you guys remind me - will I need to create a second copy of Austerlitz for this new oob and pdt stuff? I recall that's what I am suppossed to do

HAPPY NEW YEAR!

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Prince d'Austerlitz et Comte d'Argentan
Ordre national de la Légion d'honneur

"What is history but a fable agreed upon"


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:52 pm 
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Colin Knox wrote:
Sorry gents I am on holiday and my brain is not working properly haha!
I unzipped the wrong file

Not being that tech savvy on the engine can you guys remind me - will I need to create a second copy of Austerlitz for this new oob and pdt stuff? I recall that's what I am suppossed to do

HAPPY NEW YEAR!


Colin...

It creates a scenario with a unique name so you are not overwritting anything that way.

The OOB and PDT Files are unique to the only scenario in the download so you should be good to go

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Camp de Vétéran
La Grande Armée


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 6:24 pm 
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Yes, as John says no need to create a different copy of Austerlitz. You just unzip the files into the main Austerlitz folder and you are good to go.

[the ZIP file also contains the XSL file which indicates why regiments may have different morale values]

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General-Leytenant Alexey Tartyshev
Leib-Guard Preobrazhensky Regiment (Grenadier Drum)
1st Brigade
Guard Infantry Division
5th Guard Corps


(I don't play with with ZOC kills and Rout limiting ON)


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 10:15 pm 
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I have reviewed this approach briefly and my first impressions are it is very good.
I think this will reduce the endless melee fest and encourage a more historical way of fighting. I am not sure about the btn split thing though. I read the rationale for this somewhere in the pdf perhaps you can remind me. Seems weird.

I tested some currisser charges against 450 and 900 formed infantry in column and their was a very satisfactory result range. Am I correct in assuming the -60% only applies to infantry meleeing? The cavalry seemed historically as they would have been ie 1 oe 2 sqds should be enough to ride down a btn not in square.

I really like the regimental commanders.

On the downside it feels a little sterile. The current systems uneven btn sizes introduces some sense of national characteristics which is lacking if we even everything up.

I was worries about the low morales but with less melees and regimental commanders this is offset to some degree.

Overall a good and thoughtful effort I think.

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Prince d'Austerlitz et Comte d'Argentan
Ordre national de la Légion d'honneur

"What is history but a fable agreed upon"


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