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 Post subject: Benefit?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:50 am 
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It's always easy for us to look back in retrospect and question why one person does one thing and maybe why another person decided not to do something, but regardless, I bring up a debatable point for us to keep our minds spinning as the Winter months quickly approach:

Why did Napoleon find it necessary to invade the Bear we know as 'Mother Russia?'

Was he doing it like Hitler for the oil fields? For pure satisfaction, to prove that France was the greatest nation at the time? Or for some other reason I haven't read about yet historically? 8)

Who was France's toughest opponent continuously throughout the War(s)?? :?:


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 Post subject: Re: Benefit?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:49 pm 
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There are Russian scholars in our club who will give a Russian perspective however I believe I can give Napoleon's perspective.

Leading up to 1812 tensions had gradually risen between the great two powers for a range of reasons from Napoleon's insistence on the English trade embargo to the influence of the royal household on Alexander. They were wide a varied and a number of factors contributed to the tension.

Napoleon in his uniquely pragmatic way concluded war between the great empires was therefore inevitable. Which he was probably right about.

So following that conclusion he applied his method of statesmanship which had won him success to date. He was a military leader and his solution to such tensions were military. Add to this his fundamental doctrine of war and an attack was inevitable.

In regards to N's doctrine it was premised on the belief that one must attack not defend to be successful. Or perhaps better described as ensuring one has the initiative and sets the tone for operations. This had in the past allowed him to bring mass to bear for the decisive action.

This need to 'set the tone' was fundamental in all of Napoleon's calculations throughout his long military career.
And because he was a soldier more than a statesman he fell back on his area of real expertise.

In essence his conclusion was simple

1. There will be war.
2. Therefore we must attack and achieve the decisive action
3. Then there will be favourable terms for France as at Tilsit

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 Post subject: Re: Benefit?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:44 pm 
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Well said Colin and just to piggyback a bit, Napoleon was rather fond of Alexander actually. His invasion was not designed to capture resources or territory like Hitler's purpose. Napoleon wanted to force a political decision or rather a Russian change of heart if you will. He wanted Russia back as an allie or at least not allied to Britain. As our Russian friends will tesfify there two camps in Alexanders court at this time , a larger pro English faction vs a smaller pro French. The English camp had gained the ascendancy and tilted Alexander toward disregard of the continental system and ultimatley to war. Napoleon wanted a quick victory and another Tilsit like treaty.

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 Post subject: Re: Benefit?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:46 pm 
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That's a good summary. Well put Ed I agree.

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 Post subject: Re: Benefit?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:14 pm 
A very good summary from two esteemed commanders, but there is one thing about which I do seem to remain a bit confused. :| :| :|

I thought Colin's world ended in 1809. How can he possibly be intelligently discussing events that subsequently occurred, and more particularly as they pertain to Russia in 1812? :shock: :shock: :shock:

Brrrr! I predict a cold, cold summer in New Zealand this year! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Benefit?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:38 pm 
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Why Colonel Jones that post was from Colin not General Knox circa 1809. As for it being a cold summer there is a good chance of that in Wellington :mrgreen:

However any wintry weather will be made glorious summer by the laurels of the much feted world champion All Blacks.

Salute!

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 Post subject: Re: Benefit?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:02 pm 
The All Blacks.....World Champions.......Yes, they are aren't they!!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Benefit?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:43 pm 
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Are yes nothing of importance to most who post here but to us in little rugby insane New Zealand it's the 'promised land'

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 Post subject: Re: Benefit?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:44 pm 
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Another angle not mentioned is the treaty in 1809 between France and Austria whereby Western Galicia went to Poland which was not in Russia's best interests.

From Wiki:

The 1809 Austrian war treaty had a clause removing Western Galicia from Austria and annexing it to the Grand Duchy of Warsaw. Russia viewed this as against its interests and as a potential launching point for an invasion of Russia. In 1811 Russian Staff developed a plan of offensive war, assuming a Russian assault on Warsaw and Danzig.

In an attempt to gain increased support from Polish nationalists and patriots, Napoleon in his own words termed this war the Second Polish War: "Soldiers, the second war of Poland is started; the first finished in Tilsit. In Tilsit, Russia swore eternal alliance in France and war in England. It violates its oaths today. Russia is pulled by its fate; its destinies must be achieved! Does it thus believe us degenerated? Thus let us go ahead; let us pass Neman River, carry the war on its territory. The second war of Poland will be glorious with the French Armies like the first one." Napoleon daily decree, June 22, 1812. The "first" Polish war being the War of the Fourth Coalition to liberate Poland from Russia, Prussia and Austria), because one of the official declared goals of this war was the resurrection of the Polish state on territories of the former Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Tsar Alexander found Russia in an economic bind as his country had little in the way of manufacturing yet was rich in raw materials and relied heavily on trade with Napoleon's continental system for both money and manufactured goods. Russia's withdrawal from the system was a further incentive to Napoleon to force a decision.

----end of wiki-portion-----

Really had Napoleon properly set up Poland as a kingdom there is no doubt that he would have distanced himself from certain German states. On the other hand the Poles would have ended up rallying to the cause even more and he would have had a staunch state-ally in the east that never would have wavered like the others did when thing went south. The Poles were Napoleon's most staunch allies during the wars.

Well, some of the Allied generals were his allies too! :wink: They always seemed to do the things he hoped they would. :mrgreen:

Except for old Vorwarts! HUZZAH! (enter Ludwig the Magnificent)

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 Post subject: Re: Benefit?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:01 am 
And in answer to Fred's other original question, France's toughest opponent throughout all of the wars was..............The Kingdom of Hanover! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Prior to 1814, that would have been the Clandestine Kingdom of Hanover! (Yep, I know, you have never seen this in your history books and did not even know it existed. Now you do.) :shock: :shock: :shock:

See, all of this Napoleonic trivia is very simple when you get right down to it. You just have to break it down into its essential elements. Piece of cake! 8) 8) 8)


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 Post subject: Re: Benefit?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:58 am 
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Bill Peters wrote:
Well, some of the Allied generals were his allies too! :wink: They always seemed to do the things he hoped they would. :mrgreen:

Except for old Vorwarts! HUZZAH! (enter Ludwig the Magnificent)


:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :D :shock:

HI BILL!! :D

Indeed, Blücher is one of the few who was never a triator to the cause!! :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Benefit?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:42 pm 
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So the main official reason - enforcement of the Continental system - is not even considered?

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 Post subject: Re: Benefit?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:51 pm 
Colin did allude to the Continental System in his post.


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 Post subject: Re: Benefit?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:25 pm 
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I did more than allude to it: " The English camp had gained the ascendancy and tilted Alexander toward disregard of the continental system and ultimatley to war."

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 Post subject: Re: Benefit?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:26 pm 
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Never said I could spell though... :D

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