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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:28 pm 
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I have heard that Hamilton-Williams' book has some serious issues with it. I have the book but have read somewhere that it made some incorrect assumptions.

If I find anything on it I will pass it along.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:22 pm 
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Hey Bill.
I certainly would not hold it up or indeed any book as definitive. I do think its good though. I would read it and judge for yourself. In particular the authors preface about how many of the Waterloo conclusions in the traditional accounts were reached and how he approached it.

Also from an operational perspective a lot of what he said just made more sense to me.
A lot of the traditional accounts of Waterloo just don't make sense to me.
For example these questions;

The 16th
What the hell was going on with DeErlon on the day of QB / Ligny?
What happended at QB? Why did Ney call DeErlon across?

The 18th
What was Reille up to on the 18th? A whole corp at the Hougmont?
Why did Napoleon permit the use of his cavalry in the manner they were used?
Why did the whole French army suddenly rout at Waterloo? Was it really the guard retiring?
Why was Grouchy so hesitant to close on the Prussians?
What happended to DeErlon's infantry after the big attack failed?
How effective was the Prussian army and its leadership?
Why did Napoleon see Brussells as so important?

These and many more questions are often unaswered in the traditional accounts and this book and 'the Battle' try to deal with this. As do others.

Anyhow I am sure its got flaws in it most do but if you read it you will see he tries to answer these questions and others.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:48 pm 
I personally love that book. It always made more sense to me than the more traditional accounts. The pieces all seemed to logically fit. :wink: :wink: :wink:

Dang, Colin and I seem to agree on a lot of things, so I find myself wondering why our uniforms are so radically different? One of us must have gotten in the wrong line in the grade school cafeteria. :shock: :shock: :shock:


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:50 pm 
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Hey Bill check this out. Wow its a bit sad how these people bicker. In my opinion this is one of the best works on the period. I judge that from practical study as oppossed to anything scholarly

From the author;

'I am the author. I wish to answer the sustained attacks on my books over the last fifteen years by Micheal Le Vean et als. This man and his friends have spent years attacking my books and defaming me, they do so because I would not take part in and opposed their undemocratic coup d'etat to oust Robert Snibbe as president of the Napoleonic Society of America in 1994.

Le Vean evens quotes the late Col. Elting to discredit me putting words into his mouth, which cannot now be disputed.

Their friend and colleague Peter Hofshroer and his `partner' David Hollins also try to denigrate my work, in Hofshroer's case my book came out first and stole his thunder vis a vis the Prussians , Dutch-Belgian and Germans true role in the Campaign.I have been severely disabled for the last thirty years due to a spinal injury and now a severe heart and lung condition from being housebound and it's been too traumatic for me to counter their lies until now.

I cannot, however, continue to accept this venomous spite from these persons without answering them as it's embarrassing to my family. Many people have faulted my sources, (quite rightly) and I have been too unwell to answer but I do so now.

I was approached by Arms and Armour press in 1991 on the recommendation of two historians that I had corresponded with for many years. I was commissioned to write a book about the fall of Napoleon and Waterloo.
This I did.

However, in 1993, seven weeks before my manuscript was due to be handed in, I had a panicked editor on my doorstep who said that he needed a book on Waterloo and to scrap "the politics"! Being a first time author I was coerced in to starting my manuscript again from scratch, either that or they said they would not publish it.

In six weeks I wrote New Perspectives from start to finish, culling it from the original work; Writing, assembling photographs and maps and proof reading this "new work in just six weeks was huge undertaking and one I have never been happy with.

It meant that many of my citations were either copied wrongly or numbered incorrectly. I was not even allowed a bibliography on the grounds of cost so I tried to cite as many works in the footnotes as possible.

The bibliography appeared in my other book "The Fall of Napoleon" published a few weeks later. This was the first part of my original book, the second part (unpublished) was the machinations leading to Napoleon's return from Elba and King Murat's campaign against Austria in 1815; Waterloo and St.Helena (unpublished) being the last part.

Thirty years work cut up and badly produced. Such is the power of the publisher. I also cringed at what the PR said on the jacket, but there again I had no say. Having been disabled for over three decades, I have spent my enforced isolation in researching Napoleonic archives(cited in "The Fall of Napoleon") and obtaining international accounts of the period, mainly by correspondence. Due to my injuries, I have been able to devote all my time to studying rather than being a `part-time' author/researcher with a full-time occupation. After a most vitriolic personal attack by the above named critics, I suffered a severe heart attack in 1994 and withdrew from writing anymore books as I am not well enough to fight back against such personal vindictiveness that follows a publication and the game did not seem to be worth the candle.

I also did not feel like answering their personal libels and slanders as to my private life as this is an old trick to make me look guilty by having perpetually to justify myself and therefore look at fault by doing so.

Finally, as to my veracity, I was made a Fellow of the International Napoleon Society in 1996 and I was awarded its highest award The Legion of Merit in 2001, for my lifetime services to Napoleonic history.

If anyone is in doubt as to the veracity of this, they need only contact the INS or go to their website http://www.napoleonicsociety.com/english/officers.htm. May I take this opportunity to thank all those readers who have judged my books on their merit and have not been swayed by all the venom generated against me.'

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:55 pm 
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And I suspect the reason he has had the attacks is because in reality it was not the English that won the day alone, or Wellington. So in the English speaking world that is not politically correct.
Especially as the book was written after two world wars between German and English speakers.

It was Blucher, Gneisnau and the awesome Prussians that culminated in Ziethen's decisive attack that really won the day. Wellington even said so 'give me Blucher or give me night'

Wellington did well for sure but it took both armies to defeat histories greatest soldier.
Is Waterloo the most studied battle in military history?

The final word from me goes to Tondu

'what more is history but a fable agreed upon'

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"What is history but a fable agreed upon"


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:01 pm 
My judgement on merit is that it is one very fine book. I never read the slanderous remarks. My instincts said this was the closest to the whole truth that anyone had ever achieved. It just felt right to me from the very beginning.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:04 pm 
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Peter Hofschröer is also critical of Hamilton-Williams.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:54 pm 
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Favorite Battle: I'd have to go with Friedland, Austerlitz and then the twin battles of Quatre Bras and Ligny.

As far as "New Perspectives", I thoroughly enjoyed the book and still pull it out on occasion. I also noticed that the BG Waterloo game relied heavily on this work for both material for the introduction and much of the timing/placement of units.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:20 pm 
H-W did the overview doc for FIW. I like his writing style.

I've read both his Nap books, and liked the fresh perspective he brought to the subject.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:00 pm 
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Leipzig of course!

Follow by Dennewitz, Liegnitz (Katzbach/Wahlstatt), then some actions at Waterloo or anything else involving my beloved Prussians!! :mrgreen:

Ok to switch to the old iNWC French CiC costume....let me rummage in the closet...oh here it is....I have always been fond of the Russian Campaign. I personally love NIR as the game, but also like the very international makeup of Napoleon's army at the time. I have always had a soft spot in my heart for the contingents, the Rheinbund, Italians, Poles et al. I think they were sometimes better than the French troops themselves and served Napoleon far better. Poniatowski & Eugene were some of the best and most consistent field officers Napoleon had. For many of these reasons, plus the splendid icons in the games that allowed me to create awesome OOB's, I used this as a basis for the army there. At the closure of the Club some of or largest nationalities in the Club were Italians, Poles & Spaniards.... :mrgreen:

But I think the Battle of Nations takes the cake, the sheer size and scope of it is amazing! I truly is the Pièce de résistance....

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:11 pm 
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Ja ja, Herr Ludwig. Leipzig is THE premier Napoleonic battle. I order that the ratio of Leipzig books to Waterloo books be 15:1 for the next 10 years. There, got that off my chest! :mrgreen:

Waterloo lasted what, maybe 10 hours?

Leipzig lasted FOUR days. There was SOME fighting on the 17th.

Now for the trivia question for the day - name the Byzantine battle that lasted SIX days.

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Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:25 pm 
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I hope so too Bill.... :D

I am tired of Waterloo this and Waterloo that....I will personally be expanding my collection of all things Leipzig and Prussian related, starting with that collection you emailed me about a month ago, that I failed to reply back....but I wanted to acknowledge I had read it... :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:31 pm 
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Any good books on Leipzig you Sausage crew can recommend? Not to dry so that my colourful Frenchness can absorb it.

re trivia Battle of Yarmouk

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:38 pm 
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Colin Knox wrote:
It was Blucher, Gneisnau and the awesome Prussians that culminated in Ziethen's decisive attack that really won the day. Wellington even said so 'give me Blucher or give me night'


I am framing this and hanging it on my wall.... :mrgreen:

To "Waterloo" a bit around the tavern, I really think the command of the Prussians in 1815, General Staff, Corps Commanders and other on down is the finest they will field in the whole Napoleonic Wars. That is not to say that the 1813/14 is not excellent, but they are missing some key folks who get bumped up in this camapign. It is truly a tip of the hat to the choices made in this campaign and the General Staff system the Prussia employed after the reforms that it will be perfected by Moltke a couple decades later and emulated even until today.....

I firmly believe in tandem teams, a dual partnership at the top. Every great war won by a great commander had an equally great second in command right behind him and the armies of this war are no exception. Blücher & Scharnhorst/Gneisenau, Napoleon & Davout/Berthier/Eugene/Poniatowski to name a few, Schwarzenberg & Radetzky, Wellington & Rowland "Daddy" Hill, whom I am very fond of and unsung counterpart to Welly.

As for the Russians, I have to say this...another reason why I like 1812 is because I think it is he finest assembly of officers in all arms that the French and Russians will produce in this whole war. From top on down, there are fantastic performers at all levels. I think the Russian officer Corps has yet to be credited what it deserves....kind of the way it is in the Club here. A closed off aspect, with its archives buried deep and protected..... :D Still I think these were very well classed armies.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:08 am 
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It's true Scott. Credit where credit is due Gneisnau and Blucher combined were very impressive.

Napoleon is still histories greatest soldier though :mrgreen: . In true german style they studied his method and made it into a system. Napoleon never systemised it he was just too Corsican for that. But actually even in 1815 some of his insights are astounding. One author has referred to it as if he could see through hills.

He did miss Berthier badly in 1815 though so your statement about partnerships is so true.

Also many historians underestimate the loss of Marechal Lannes in 1809 he was Napoleons best Marshal in my opinion and N's only true personal friend.

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"What is history but a fable agreed upon"


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