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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:21 pm 
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For my new command system coming out soon here are some more modifications that should restore the historical feel for our games and eliminate the need to use the NME rule (which I suggested to be brought in to deal with the Blitz).

The discussion below there will be two schools of thought. Here they are:

Box Boy - this is a term we use in the USA to describe someone that works in a market who "bags" the groceries for the customers at the cash register. I use it here to describe the vast majority of us who use units from more than one brigade to attack and "bag" units. The Blitz crowd would fall into the Super Box Boy group but I will be using only "Box Boy" in the discussion.

HAP - this is the new concept. Historically Accurate Practice. I was thinking of one of our USAF generals when I picked it. In this format you use the units that COULD melee the opponent and no radio guided assistance is allowed.

Lets talk about Box Boy first. Box Boy brings up his units and attempts to get into the rear to use units that have meleed to cut off the retreat route of units that have yet to be attacked. In this case Box Boy has pushed the vegetables out of the way and is looking to "bag" the meat and canned goods (he has pushed skirmishers out of the way and other lesser units and is working on bagging the better units - artillery, guard units, etc.). The problem with this is that it rarely happened that way. It is a gamey technique that unfortunately all of us have tried at one time or another. About the best coordination in a melee you could get was TWO battalions working together or three at most to attack the SAME battalion. In our HEX oriented world that would increase to maybe four attackers on two defenders. It is why the attacker tried to soften up the defender first and attack later.

Box Boy looks to use his super bagger, the cavalry, at any opportunity. He may first use the infantry to hit a key point in the line and then in goes super bagger to put those canned goods and meat into the bag. In one replay of an Eckmuhl file long ago we saw an entire BRIGADE disappear in one turn. Yes, not REGIMENT, BRIGADE. Super bagger at his finest.

But find me a battle where that ever occurred in 10-15 mins. of time.

Now onto HAP. HAP says that first a softening up fire would weaken the defender. Skirmishers would be sent forward to harass the defender. They would not be sent to find any nook and cranny they could use in the open to get in behind a unit. Woods maybe but these units for the most part did not operate on their own if two enemy bodies were to one side or another. They stayed in communication as much as possible with their cadre so that information on the enemy could be relayed back for dissemination by the commander of the grand tactical force.

Cavalry on the battlefield would be used in a light recon role to gather information. And yes we can do that with ability to split up the regiment or squadron into 2 or more parts to maximize this ability.

Once the brigade started the attack they might have a couple of neighboring brigades on either flank. The brigade would have several LINES to it. A skirmisher body in front with the cadres of the battalions forming that line while a main body of regulars and artillery would be behind. In reserve would be the better battalions and light or medium cavalry.

The entire scene would play out in a series of initial meetings and the front of the brigade would meet the front of the enemy. For overlap the flank units would still keep the frontage concept alive. Their overlapping effect would unhinge most defenders but not all. But they would not suddenly dash to hit the rear of the defender as they never knew what lay behind the defenders lines.

Why do I say that? Well the smoke and confusion of command would not allow the flanking units to suddenly dart down roads, detach skirmishers that would run pell mell all over the battlezone. It just never happened that way. Brigades attempted to operate in their own little world on the battlefield.

Unit commanders were not fond of "out of control" units. Hey, we all have done THAT too.

Here is a diagram of how the attackers and defenders might look:

In this case a French brigade is looking to take on a Prussian defensive position. The LOS is set at ON (and on purpose) to show what the front line units can see.

Image

The dark blue line denotes an area that the BRIGADE (not you) cannot determine. While you may have a leader up on a hill 20 hexes away that can make out whether anything is beyond that point the poor bloody infantry (PBI) have no clue that there is anything out there. And that woods does not help matters.

The red lines on either side is the flank fear zone. The flanking units in the attack formation have every reason to fear that their flank may be endangered from something from this direction. What is over that hill? How about the woods? And those cavalry squadrons do not look friendly either.

In make their attack they may even put the flank elements of the second line into square to ward off any future attacks by the cavalry.

The artillery battery will make some prep fire on the front line of the defenders. The skirmishers will be pushed out of the way and the main assault will begin. It would look something like this.

Image

From here the battle could flow back and forth several times with the attacker attempting to bring more fire on the enemy or attacking them in column to try and unhinge their line.

In the picture the red line denotes the main line of resistance. While the Prussians may end up falling back, until they do, this line will denote the line that the defender wishes to hold. (read: this is not a "rearguard operation")

The melees would be frontal for the most part as neither side has numerical superiority.

And note that a brigade of cavalry arrived to support the attack. The Prussians likewise would form square at some point, attack would follow attack or the two sides may just end up performing some fire on each other and one side would figure that it has had enough.

But you would not see five units pounce on one and the cavalry use a friendly battalion as an anvil upon which to "bag" some groceries, er, units.

If you are more in tune with this sort of play then more is to come and I think that you will like it.

For instance: lets say that a neighboring set of formations for both sides is facing each other. Well frankly with the smoke and command control issues neither would be able to tell the other that there are issues with their lines. Not on a "same turn" basis. Thus some skeptics might say, "Well how DID they roll up a line?" Easy. One brigade just never knew that the other brigades furthest flank was falling apart because smoke and command issues could not allow the news to be relayed to them.

Also: frontages and commitment under these rules would be strictly controlled by both players over themselves. No more piling 20 battalions into a frontage. It will be up to the players to use the formations I show in the examples in the "manual."

The big thing is that there will be melee commitment levels and that it will resemble to the EAW series players (1812, 1776, etc) more of what they are used to seeing - less ability to get a 2:1 melee and more in line with the concept of weakening the defender first.

The 2/3 melee value for a Disordered defender will take on new meaning. "Hit for Disorder" type attacks will be outlawed. Also the idea that infantry can attack a unit and then cavalry do the same. Once a unit has been marked "Has Meleed" it cannot be attacked again by cavalry. BUT the Multiple Cavalry rule will still apply in order to allow them to continue hitting the same defender. They will just not be able to melee a unit that infantry did a few minutes ago. In other words the idea is that cavalry and infantry cannot "team up" for meleeing. This also means that they may not participate in the SAME melee too.

Melees:

Units of the SAME regiment or LINE may melee together and no more than TWO units may participate. More care will be taken to fire on the defender to get him to Disorder and THEN melee.

For instance:

Lets say that two 500 man French battalions face a 750 man Prussian line battalion. Usually we would see something like FOUR French units gang up on him. Under the new rules these two units would first pour in some fire OR wait to see the effect of their own artillery.

While advancing on the enemy they may overlap his flanks. This would be represented by ONE of the units striking the flank while the other attacks the front. Perfectly acceptable under the new system. If in fact the Prussian player LETS you do it.

However, should there be a Prussian unit directly behind the other then the French will NOT try for the flank. Why? Because this would open them up for a flank attack in response.

The rules will basically state that units on your front line must engage the enemy's front line unless you gain the flank advantage. This will be dealt with more in the manual and with several illustrations. It is a grand tactical formation issue and not just two units being able to overlap one unit's flanks.

For instance here is one of the illustrations showing how the defender can deny his flank from being attacked:

Image

In this example because no French units are not positioned to GUARD the unit circled in blue who wishes to flank the defender then he cannot make the attack.

However, if this were the setup he could:

Image

Note the absence of certain defenders and the presence of certain attacking units (the cavalry on the right flank) allows the defender to attack but the units that nullify the defender's threat must be in place at the START of the move and thus you could not move a unit forward to nullify a threat and then attack a flank.

Also: a new "rally back" rule for cavalry will mean that they fall back a certain distance after a charge and reform for any future operations. Thus the old days of attacking and reforming on the next turn for a charge are over. You will need to attack in WAVES of squadrons instead.

Anyway, a short glimpse into what lies ahead. See attached replay file for a sample of how this all works. Notice how as the French I attack the Allies in a series of one line reinforcing the other.


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Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, VP4LC, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.07)


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:31 am 
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In Table top no ME could pass thru or fight with in another simple moving elements ME only same units in that ME could be use Cav and inf . At no time could a Cav Me enter into the same hex as a Inf Me if a me routed thou a Me that Me would be dis ordered. Exp 1st div I Corps =one ME 2nd Div I corps =another Cav I brig =one ME


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:57 am 
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Fascinating stuff Bill. I like the intent of what you are saying. I totally agree with what you say about the reality of attacking in a much more direct and crude manner.

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~ 51st Light Infantry (Second Yorkshire West Riding) ~
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:54 am 
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And hey, even though I am going to this format I am not saying at all that anyone who does not is playing unhistorical as even I try not to do the "circle their wagons and" tactics.

I am just saying that on an EVEN frontage this is how it all worked.

Yes Cliff, I remember that. I also remember that some MEs HAD cavalry such as an Austrian Light Brigade. Jagers and Chevaulegers.

In the diagram what you see is a French Division with three brigades. The Prussians have a Brigade with three smaller "Treffes" or lines.

I call the Division for the French and the Brigade for the Prussians their main tactical formations. Thus any unit in a French brigade or Prussian Treffe can interact with another of the same kind within its own division. A lightening a bit of my earlier comments about "you must use units from the same regiment or brigade ..."

Essentially this means that in this formation any TWO battalions could melee together against a common enemy. The Prussian formation was very much "mixed" in that the three regiments that made up the formation were intermixed together in the "Treffe."

Thus for playability and historicity sake my rule would be the above in this response - two units from the same division.

And I will have a SIZE rule that allows THREE units to melee together when the battalions are under 400 men. They simply fill up the frontal hexes of the defender and one optionally on the flank IF the flank response has been neutralized.

Once the formations dissolve into a mess (and they will) then reform rules will apply once one of the formations retreats. Commitment to reinforce the action - rules will apply to that as well.

I like the concept and the more PICTURES the better and as we play it I will continue to add more examples. I like books with pictures! :mrgreen:

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Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, VP4LC, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.07)


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:29 am 
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Like this concept - I think it will improve historical play - making the games even more enjoyable (as my preference is to play as historical as possible ) Very creative thought Bill


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:02 am 
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Mon ami Bill the mix ME as they were called still were considered one ME (moving Element) the inf slowed the Me down no unit in a ME could go no faster then the slowest so if a Prussian Mix Me of three Batt and one cav regt could only move 10hex but no interpenetration kept all game real. An since most Allied Armies were Regimental Armies that slowed them down in their attack and movement not like these games were all Armies move at the same speed.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:31 pm 
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Bill I like this which may surprise you. But is this a house rule or are you going to get the game engine changed somehow for this?

If its a house rule I would not play it however I can understand why people would enjoy it after all it will mimic the tactics better.

I find house rules are spoiling the enjoyment of the game as they can lead to endless debates.
However if the engine was the engine so to speak thats much better.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:03 pm 
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No, engine changes from here on out that will be original code but copies of whatever John has done before. He just doesn't have the time for it. At least I will not be asking him to code anything original. I will not speak for the other guys.

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Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, VP4LC, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.07)


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:54 pm 
General Knox said it best. :)


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:42 pm 
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Debate ONLY occurs for the following reasons:

1. People are bent on winning, boasting, cramming their better play down your throat. I won't be playing those types anymore anyway.

2. Someone sees someone doing something TERRIBLY unhistorical. As I won't be playing those types (those that just play "whatever goes") again it is a moot issue.

These rules operate only as guidelines for better play and those willing to play them will do so because they enjoy historical gaming and not pinball Napoleonics. For those of you that just cannot wait to unleash your cavalry time and time again in conjunction with the blitz I doubt that you ever really did enjoy the games. To you they were always an ego builder.

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Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, VP4LC, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.07)


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