Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)

Looking over the list of Napoleon's Marshal's it is really evident there was a clear drop off in talent in the later years of the Empire. St Cyr being the only effective military strategist in those latter years, (remember he was the only Marshal not to taste defeat in Spain). Yes Ney may have been the Bravest of the Brave but he was far from a military genuis.

Some may say it was the quality of the soldier in 1813 vs 1805/06/07 but really Oudinott compared with Lannes??? Who was the biggest traitor (Bernadotte or Murat ??) Who was the most Loyal and Napolean's most trusted and valued warrior. Who among this list was, over the period of their influence, the best ? To me it was Lannes but I wonder how things would have turned out if the Emperor would have give Marmont his baton with the original group in 1804 instead of slighting him ??
Here is the list - hope I did not forget anyone. Who in your opinion was the best and who was the worst ?
- Pierre Francois Charles Augerea the Duke Duc de Castiglione Appointed 19.05.1804
-Jean-Baptiste Jules Bernadotte Appointed 19.05.1804
- Louis-Alexandre Berthier Prince de Neuchatel, (was his death suicide or murder?) Appointed 19.05.1804
-Jean Baptiste Bessieres Duc D’Istrie, Killed in battle in 1813 Appointed 19.05.1804
-Guillaume Marie Anne Brune Murdered by a loyalist mob Appointed 19.05.1804
-Louis Nicolas Davout Prince de Eckmuhl, Duc d’Auerstadt Appointed 19.05.1804
-Laurent Gouvion St.Cyr, Later Marquis de St.Cyr Appointed 27.08.1812
-Emmanuel Marquis de Grouchy- Marquis Appointed 03.06.1815
-Jean Baptiste Jourdan- Appointed 19.05.1804
-Francois Etienne Christophe Kellerman, Duc de Valmy Appointed 19.05.1804
-Jean Lannes Killed in battle 1809 Appointed 19.05.1804
-Francois Joseph Lefebvre Duc de Danzig Appointed 19.05.1804
-Jacques Etienne Joseph Macdonald Duc de Tarente Appointed 12.07.1809
-Auguste Frederic Viesse de Marmont, Duc de Raguse Appointed 12.07.1809
-Andre Massena, Prince d’Essling Duc de Rivoli Appointed 19.05.1804
-Bon Adrien Jannot de Moncey Duc de Conegliano appointed 19.05.1804
-Adolphe Edouard Mortier Duc de Trevise Appointed 19.05.1804
-Joachim Murat King of Naples, Grand Duke of Berg, death by firing squad Appointed 19.05.1804
-Michel Ney Prince de la Moskowa, Duc D’Elchingen, death by firing squad Appointed 19.05.1804
-Nicholas Charles Oudinot Duc de Reggio Appointed 12.07.1809
-Josef Anton Prince Poniatowski Drowned in battle Appointed 16.10.1813
-Jean Mathieu Serurier apppointed 19.05.1804
-Nicolas Jean de Dieu Soult Duc de Dalmatie Appointed 19.05.1804
-Louis Gabriel Suchet Duc d’Albufera Appointed 01.07.1811
-Claude Victor Duc de Bellune Appointed 13.07.1807

I have read several well written books that suggest Davout had the best sense of military tactics in your list ( after Lannes was killed ) in fact several books will suggest that Waterloo would have been different if Davout was on the field instead of Soult.

The worst would be a title that could be claimed by several but my choice would be the future king of Sweden.

I think the death of Berthier was suicide and his abscense from Waterloo was also telling.

It should be kept in mind that Napoleon did not trust any of the Marshall's he created.

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In my estimation Marshal Davout was the greatest military genius in all of Europe at the time of the Napoleonic Wars. He was the most feared in battle next to that of Napoleon. The Battle of Auerstaedt could not have been won my a lesser general!

Davout never suffered a loss as far as I know. Even against 70k men at Auerstaedt he won.

There are other Marechals that perhaps were not as good as Bernadotte but he was the least loyal of the group. I would rate Marechal Victor over him and Victor was not the greatest general.

Marmont was good until he became war weary. Joseph was a poor leader in Spain which probably led to them being beaten by the Duke time and time again.

MacDonald is not one of the brightest lightbulbs in the box. But yes, Bernadotte is probably the least as far as performance goes.

I would have made Friant a Marechal as well as Gudin and Morand. All fine generals. Would have been interesting to see Morand take Bernadotte's place in charge of the Saxons.

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Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, VP4LC, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.07)

My vote would be cast for Marechal Lannes. He had the technical skill of Davout, and a much greater charisma. To me, he was the embodiment of the total package.

If I was preparing to embark upon a campaign against the lackeys of the ancien regimes, I would want Marechal's Lannes, Davout, and Massena commanding my main forces.
I would place Soult, St Cyr, and Suchet in the second ranking of the Marechal's.
In the third rank I would have men such as Augerau & MacDonald.
Now, I have a special grouping, Marechal's who fall into a unique category in my POV.
Here we have Berthier, the Chief of Staff, and truly indispensible in that role.
And Ney, bravest of the brave on the battlefield itself, but nigh clueless in the planning of an operation. And Murat, cavalry commander par excellent.
For added musings, I wonder why important aides such as Rapp and Mouton never got the chance to lead a corps? These men played such vital roles in the way that Napoleon conducted campaigns that I've always wondered about that, especially when compaired to some of the lesser lights.

Bon Adrien Jannot de Moncey Duc de Conegliano appointed 19.05.1804 the worst !

For me the number 1 is Lannes a wonderful leader in the mould of the Emperor himself. Loved by the troops and extremely skillful in battle. He was also one of Napoleon's only true friends.
His loss in 1809 can not be underestimated.

As for the rest I think

- Davout was the most technically able

- Murat was the greatest cavalry leader of his age and rates highly of all time

- Massena and Ney were capable of indedepent commands making them very useful. Ney was also a talismanic leader for France also loved by the troops for his sheer bravery. The stories he cost the whole campaign in 1815 are misrepresentations of the situation.

- I also understand Marechal Ludwig was a great leader until changing sides.

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Marechal Knox

Prince d'Austerlitz et Comte d'Argentan
Ordre national de la Légion d'honneur

"What is history but a fable agreed upon"

Marechal Ludwig!!! As in Marechal of.......France!!!

I thought Old Windy was born with a sausage in his left hand, a beer stein in his right and a Prussian flag as the blanket for his crib.

Ach du Lieber, dieses ist nicht gut!

Louis Nicolas Davout Prince de Eckmuhl, Duc d’Auerstadt Appointed 19.05.1804 best

Yes, I think it was easy for Napoleon to represent his subordinates as culprit instead of him making mistakes. Grouchy took the blame for not participating to Waterloo while he was following orders and Ney for his senseless attacks in the middle when Napoleon let him do it in front of his eyes.

For me the number one is Davout for his capacities even if he wasn't charismatic like some others.
Lannes "left" too early

But then I do like Ney a lot... for his abilities, his flaws, his unfortunate end. I have visited his grave a few time (at the Pere Lachaise cemetery)... along with some of the others Marechals...


(source wikipedia)

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Général David Guegan

3ème Régiment de Grenadiers - Bataillon d'élite du 3ème Légère
2ème Brigade
Grenadiers de la Réserve
Réserve
La Grande Armée
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"From the sublime to the ridiculous is but a step."
Napoléon Bonaparte

Military justice is to justice what military music is to music.
Groucho Marx

MURAT!!! You must be joking. I doubt if he was better than a brigade commander. Promoted well over his ability. About the only thing he was good at was CHARGE CHARGE CHARGE! Reminds me of someone I have played in the club ...

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Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz

3. Husaren-Regiment, Reserve-Kavallerie, Preußischen Armee-Korps

Honarary CO of Garde-Ulanen Regiment, Garde-Grenadier Kavallerie

NWC Founding Member

For Club Games: I prefer the Single Phase mode of play. I prefer to play with the following options OFF:

MDF, VP4LC, NRO, MTD, CMR, PR, MIM, NDM, OMR (ver 4.07)

Hey, don't anybody look at me! I have never played Bill.

Davout was the most loyal and I believe he was the last to surrender and next to Napoleon the one commander others did not want to battle. And that says it all for me!